All for Reef frustration—Help?

[Lyss]

I’m not sure where you get your information. BTW…27 years is an appeal to authority. Lol.

These elements are not stable and need to be dosed daily so that they are continuously available as they do not stay present long. Let’s take iodine for example. Every ICP I’ve seen with ALR shows depleted levels or elevated levels which can nuke a tank. This is a major problem, because you are unable to fine tune that element. There is zero control. You can only dose and trust what they’ve given you in the bottle and I’ll be willing to bet you do not know the concentration.

Let’s take it further and look at Iron and Manganese. What if you have a large refugium with Marco algae? Or what if somebody is running a ATS? Do you think that these elements in the bottles are not going to be quickly depleted?

I see elements like Fluoride & Boron get depleted very quickly…how do you address those? Or do you trust the bottle and hope they’re in normal ranges? Fluoride specifically needs to be loaded initially until it hits a saturation point which in most systems will never happen with AFR.

Appeal to authority, yes. But just an FYI that I believe you're talking to the person who developed AFR: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/all-for-reef-enough-iodine.861372/

 

[Reefahholic]

Appeal to authority, yes. But just an FYI that I believe you're talking to the person who developed AFR: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/all-for-reef-enough-iodine.861372/

Haha…we’ll let’s see how he handles iodine. Can’t wait to hear!

 

[Hooz]

Appeal to authority, yes. But just an FYI that I believe you're talking to the person who developed AFR: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/all-for-reef-enough-iodine.861372/

Hans-Werner Balling, ie, the "Balling Method" guy. I mean, somewhat an authority on the subject.

 

[Reefahholic]

Hans-Werner Balling, ie, the "Balling Method" guy. I mean, somewhat an authority on the subject.

I know who he is.

 

[LetsPlayNice]

I know who he is.

 

[Reefahholic]

Don’t be silly.

If you want to believe that elements like Iodine, Boron, Molybdenum, etc are stable and consistent in AFR when I’ve seen several ICP tests that suggest otherwise then that’s on you. Mr. Balling knows very well that iodine is very difficult to handle and even dosing X amount per a giving volume needs to be done from ICP to ICP because our home test kits are difficult to perform, read, and aren’t very accurate.

If he has a better way of dosing it I’m all ears.

 

[Reefahholic]

If concentrations don't balance out by themselfes there is still the possibility to correct them with regular or occasional corrections.

How often would you say this happens and how do you suggest correcting these elements that don’t balance out. There’s only a few ways to do it. Water changes, quit dosing and let the element/s come down naturally, supplement the elements that are low, etc. This creates a lot of work which is why I feel it’s better to address each element individually and dial it in to your desired target level. Does that sound unreasonable and if so why?

I wanna be clear, I have nothing against AFR…I’m speaking from experience with several of these products that are all similar. Products like Red Sea Trace colors, Triton Core7, ESV, DSR, etc. Most are 1-4 bottles with trace’s. There’s always some elements that either come back low or depleted. Others are drifting out of range over time. I keep seeing it from all of them on ICP and constantly hear people complaining about it which is why I even responded to this thread.

 

[LetsPlayNice]

Don’t be silly.

If you want to believe that elements like Iodine, Boron, Molybdenum, etc are stable and consistent in AFR when I’ve seen several ICP tests that suggest otherwise then that’s on you. Mr. Balling knows very well that iodine is very difficult to handle and even dosing X amount per a giving volume needs to be done from ICP to ICP because our home test kits are difficult to perform, read, and aren’t very accurate.

If he has a better way of dosing it I’m all ears.

Trying to call out Hans was silly. Im just pointing out how silly you sound as others have hinted at..

No reason to question the credibility of Hans or his judgement.

We all know there are endless ways to 'skin this cat'.

Reef moonshiners is a fine way to run a reef, but so is dosing AFR. The product used ultimately has no effect on the outcome of the tank, both will support tanks.

What makes or breaks a tank is ultimately how dedicated one is to keeping it alive.

Sure some products allow a more hands off approach, but there is success (and failure) using any method you want to pick (including AFR).

You can question while showing respect, or you can troll, your inching closer to trolling vs well intentioned discussion.

 

[LetsPlayNice]

How often would you say this happens and how do you suggest correcting these elements that don’t balance out. There’s only a few ways to do it. Water changes, quit dosing and let the element/s come down naturally, supplement the elements that are low, etc. This creates a lot of work which is why I feel it’s better to address each element individually and dial it in to your desired target level. Does that sound unreasonable and if so why?

I wanna be clear, I have nothing against AFR…I’m speaking from experience with several of these products that are all similar. Products like Red Sea Trace colors, Triton Core7, ESV, DSR, etc. Most are 1-4 bottles with trace’s. There’s always some elements that either come back low or depleted. Others are drifting out of range over time. I keep seeing it from all of them on ICP and constantly hear people complaining about it which is why I even responded to this thread.

All methods are going to become unbalanced without careful and frequent ICP analysis, and even with ICP 0 doesn't mean 0.

 

[Reefahholic]

All methods are going to become unbalanced without careful and frequent ICP analysis, and even with ICP 0 doesn't mean 0.

True, but some methods offer a lot more control. It doesn’t have to be the method I use, but any method similar to Triton where you have full control to dial each element in individually.

 

[LetsPlayNice]

True, but some methods offer a lot more control. It doesn’t have to be the method I use, but any method similar to Triton where you have full control to dial each element in individually.

A comment I can agree with. For users that want that control triton is good as is reef moonshiners. For those that want more hands off and don't want to do regular ICP tests AFR, or any balling method or even frequent regular water changes will keep everything at levels safe for maintaining a tank.

AFR isn't perfect nothing is, but as a hands off single solution in the current market it is a clear winner. All of the minerals, ions, and compounds present in NSW aren't always needed in a captive tank. Tank size plays a big role in the appropriate method for each individual as well. I don't think I would recommend AFR for tanks over 120. Not that it can't be done, but there are better ways. Some of which you previously mentioned.

 

[Reefahholic]

The product used ultimately has no effect on the outcome of the tank, both will support tanks.

The product used has a lot to do with the outcome of the tank. It’s not only about supporting a tank. I want my tank to thrive and prefer the entire chemistry to be on point. I feel like the microbiome depends on it that the tank can thrive much better with these trace’s in range.

 

[Lyss]

The funny thing is that I figured out what was happening, and it wasn’t even the product’s fault.

Today I pruned the halimeda by a lot, and lowered my NoPox dose a bit in an effort to keep nitrate from dropping much further. We’ll see if it works out…

 

[Reefahholic]

A comment I can agree with. For users that want that control triton is good as is reef moonshiners. For those that want more hands off and don't want to do regular ICP tests AFR, or any balling method or even frequent regular water changes will keep everything at levels safe for maintaining a tank.

AFR isn't perfect nothing is, but as a hands off single solution in the current market it is a clear winner. All of the minerals, ions, and compounds present in NSW aren't always needed in a captive tank. Tank size plays a big role in the appropriate method for each individual as well. I don't think I would recommend AFR for tanks over 120. Not that it can't be done, but there are better ways. Some of which you previously mentioned.

Well, I certainly agree with that. If you want a hands off method and you’re not worried about ICP analysis and drifting or depleted elements then AFR is a good choice and so are some of the others. For me…I’m trying to prevent anything that could lead to bleaching or TN. So I need more control.

 

[LetsPlayNice]

True, but some methods offer a lot more control. It doesn’t have to be the method I use, but any method similar to Triton where you have full control to dial each element in individually.

The product used has a lot to do with the outcome of the tank. It’s not only about supporting a tank. I want my tank to thrive and prefer the entire chemistry to be on point. I feel like the microbiome depends on it that the tank can thrive much better with these trace’s in range.

Now your getting into salt mix brand debate territory. You can find thriving and dead tanks that have used all of the products mentioned previously, that is the point I am making.

Both methods WORK neither one will directly kill or make a tank thrive overnight.

Housekeeping is what ultimately gives each of us a tank we enjoy. Whether that tank is a FOWLER, softie, LPS, mixed or SPS tank.

Poor housekeeping will kill a tank, choosing to use AFR, Triton, ESV, BRS, or Reef Moonshiners isn't going to kill a tank based on what you choose to use. Using any of the methods improperly or blindly can kill your reef, but in choosing to go separate or all in one isn't going to kill a reef if done in the proper way with proper housekeeping.

There are countless thriving tanks using your method, AFR, BRS, etc. Just like there are failures and crashes with both.

 

[Reefahholic]

Now your getting into salt mix brand debate territory.

Well let’s hope your not using TMP as well. Joke!

There are countless thriving tanks using your method, AFR, BRS, etc.

I never mentioned the method I’m using. Shhhhh. ;Doctor Although it does give me a lot of insight from those coming in because we share ICP’s. I get to see how all these programs are doing, because most people want to finish what they already have.

Again, I don’t have anything against Dr. Balling. I’ve used several Tropic Marin products and a lot of them work well. I have a lot of respect for Dr. Balling and Lou Ekus, but I don’t have to agree with how they do everything.

 

[LetsPlayNice]

Well let’s hope your not using TMP as well. Joke!

I never mentioned the method I’m using. Shhhhh. ;Doctor Although it does give me a lot of insight from those coming in because we share ICP’s. I get to see how all these programs are doing, because most people want to finish what they already have.

Again, I don’t have anything against Dr. Balling. I’ve used several Tropic Marin products and a lot of them work well. I have a lot of respect for Dr. Balling and Lou Ekus, but I don’t have to agree with how they do everything.

Another comment I can agree with.

I was never asking you to agree with them, but your comments were leaning towards the trolling side.

I to have used their products and many others, they all work. Depending on the application and tank some are better suited than others.

I'm glad this has turned into constructive banter.

Your super secret method is safe with me.

 

[Reefahholic]

Depending on the application and tank some are better suited than others.

You hit the nail on the head. I guess you are right. Sometimes I forget that not everybody is keeping stony corals, worried about purity issues, or sending off ICP’s to catch naughty elements. My brain reverts back to those principles I guess because everybody I know and hang with are stick-heads. So forgive me for coming off a bit strong.

 

[LetsPlayNice]

You hit the nail on the head. I guess you are right. Sometimes I forget that not everybody is keeping stony corals, worried about purity issues, or sending off ICP’s to catch naughty elements. My brain reverts back to those principles I guess because everybody I know and hang with are stick-heads. So forgive me for coming off a bit strong.

No worries at all! I'm glad to have participated in this constructive exchange.

To many times I see similar threads that go the opposite way. Probably a lot of times intentionally by one party or the other.

now one thing I do want to say to @Hans-Werner no disrespect to you or anyone else, but it really irks me when anyone tries to backup their knowledge/experience/expertise by saying they have 'X' years doing something. Time while often can speak to someone's experience/expertise is not an indicator of how well versed anyone is in a particular subject matter.

Now his experience and expertise is fact and his work is more than proof of that, but years means nothing in my book.

I can guarantee that I could find reefers here with less 'time' but more expertise and experience than other refers with more 'time'

Some examples:

I can play basketball everyday for the next 80 years, I'll still never be MJ.

Just like a young Tiger would best me any day on the course even though I've played longer than he's been alive. My 'years' isn't anything on his expertise.

My point: your name speaks for itself Hans you have already proven it within the reefing industry, you don't need to use years of service to back it up.

 

[Reefahholic]

No worries at all! I'm glad to have participated in this constructive exchange.

To many times I see similar threads that go the opposite way. Probably a lot of times intentionally by one party or the other.

now one thing I do want to say to @Hans-Werner no disrespect to you or anyone else, but it really irks me when anyone tries to backup their knowledge/experience/expertise by saying they have 'X' years doing something. Time while often can speak to someone's experience/expertise is not an indicator of how well versed anyone is in a particular subject matter.

Now his experience and expertise is fact and his work is more than proof of that, but years means nothing in my book.

I can guarantee that I could find reefers here with less 'time' but more expertise and experience than other refers with more 'time'

Some examples:

I can play basketball everyday for the next 80 years, I'll still never be MJ.

Just like a young Tiger would best me any day on the course even though I've played longer than he's been alive. My 'years' isn't anything on his expertise.

My point: your name speaks for itself Hans you have already proven it within the reefing industry, you don't need to use years of service to back it up.

Yeah, he’s pretty much a legend. I’ll all ears to hear about iodine dosing. I think the best way is daily drops per system volume and adjusting from ICP to ICP until you get it dialed it. If you put it into a solution with other elements you will definitely need to shoot lower so it doesn’t creep up. Just like Bob Stark does with ESV. I have ran most of these different 2-parts with traces and tested them via ICP and still see so many other’s ICP results. I know where the chips fall. Read this below and you’ll see Bob clarify exactly what I’ve been saying:

Check it out:


Hi Jared,

B-Ionic Calcium Buffer is a complete ionically balanced 2 part meaning the residual ions left behind (after the calcium and carbonate alkalinity dosed to an aquarium is removed by calcification) duplicate all the important major, minor, and trace elements of an artificial seawater mix in their correct ratios. The product was developed in 1995 to address the issue of a slow trend toward ionic imbalance when using just calcium chloride and sodium carbonate/bicarbonate. In that situation the residual ions left behind after calcification would just be sodium and chloride. As salinity was corrected, the tank water would drift more and more towards just being a sodium chloride solution thereby lowering the concentration of some important elements. Water changes would slow down that process. In a nutshell, when you add equal amounts of our two components, you are adding highly concentrated, balanced amounts of calcium and alkalinity along with a pinch of an artificial seawater mix. With calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate/carbonate additions, you are also adding highly concentrated calcium and alkalinity, but with a pinch of just sodium chloride instead. Given that, with B-Ionic 2 part all the important ions of an artificial seawater mix are being added daily (including magnesium) but there is no possibility of overdosing any of those residual ions as long as salinity is maintained. If the salinity of the system rises, and tank water must be removed and replaced with RO/DI water, then that is in essence a small water change where the salt mix was the residual ions of our 2 part. That small "water change" can be effective at helping to stabilize certain ions that tend to drop over time in addition to calcium and alkalinity. For example magnesium and potassium. Magnesium is going into the system as part of the residual seawater ions, but that addition may not be enough to keep up with the system's demands. Other ions may not be supplied in enough quantity with these residual ions, such as iodide, strontium, and the transition metals iron, manganese, and zinc. For this reason we have separate supplements for magnesium, iodide, strontium, and our Transition Elements additive which contains iron, manganese, and zinc). Our magnesium supplement is not a 3rd part of our B-Ionic 2 part, and should only be added as testing dictates. In the systems at ESV we test for magnesium once per month and find B-Ionic 2 part keeps the levels fairly stable so supplemental addition is only occasionally called for. Many hobbyists I speak with are surprised to hear this because some other products introduced later to the market are true 3 part systems where the magnesium is in a third component presumably because they use magnesium sulfate which would be incompatible in either the calcium component (calcium sulfate would precipitate) or the alkalinity component (magnesium carbonate would precipitate). We were able to simplify things and incorporate the magnesium and sulfate within the two parts by using different magnesium and sulfate salts that are compatible with the calcium and alkalinity components. Regarding concentrations you are correct, the alkalinity component is 2800 meq/Liter (7840 dKH). The calcium component is 62,752 mg/L. The magnesium in the two part is in the calcium component, and it's concentration is proprietary but remember, you can't overdose magnesium by using B-Ionic 2 part as long as the aquarium salinity is maintained because the magnesium ions are in the correct artificial seawater ratio with the other residual ions. If the magnesium does test low due to high demand (aquariums with a high bioload of coralline algae for example), we have a separate B-Ionic Magnesium supplement only to be used as needed. The concentration of that product is 36,000 ppm magnesium. I hope this info helps clear things up and thanks for your questions, kind words, and interest in the product. Next year B-Ionic Calcium Buffer turns 25 years old!

Best Regards,

Bob Stark

ESV Aquarium Products Inc.



————————————————-
2nd Email:


Hi Jared,

I'm glad the B-Ionic 2 Part is working out for you and thanks for spreading the word! You are correct in that the amount of certain elements provided by the product may not keep up with demand, although significant trace elements are added to our systems simply by feeding. Depending on how much of the 2 part is added, certain major elements can stay in the ballpark with the 2 part alone..like magnesium, potassium, and sulfate. Others, as you suggest, are probably not being added in sufficient quantity so we suggest once per week additions of our B-Ionic Strontium and B-Ionic Iodide. In addition, for tanks over 4 months old and more populated, we recommend daily additions of our B-Ionic Transition Elements which provide very low doses of Iron, Manganese, and Zinc. We also have a Transition Elements Plus product that supplies the same amounts of these elements but also adds citric acid and ascorbic acid for carbon dosing if the aquarist is battling higher nitrates. I'm not too keen on supplying trace elements which can be required by non calcifying inhabitants (macro algae and soft corals) based on calcification rates alone, but I see some of the logic behind it. My guess is the Red Sea Colors are probably safe to use with our B-Ionic, but don't know enough about their product line to say with absolute certainty. All of the above mentioned ESV additives, in addition to the 2 Part, have been formulated to fall a little under the radar of trace element overdose and based on our testing and feedback from customers who have run ICP, we are confident the dosages are safe. Hope this info helps and thanks again for using our products!

Bob Stark

ESV Aquarium Products Inc.