Alternative dips, share your experiences...

[143MPCo]

I know I might be opening up a can of worms with this one (diehard bayer users)...
not that I have anything against "bayer" for dipping just a little on the fence with all the chemicals in it, and yes I have used it.
...just came across this, anyone have first had experience with this product?

 

[Vmacisback]

I can vouch for the Cal/ALK as well as another dip he made called Bug OFF i believe. They make quality stuff, and the bug off was better in my opinion than Bayer because it uses the stuff we need for pests but left the chemicals out that we dont need. He basically made Bayer but specifically for corals which is maybe why he came out with this. I heard some people weren't happy with his last product because it was too close to some other ones out there. Im excited to try this one when it hits stores.

 

[BrotherReef]

I use all of his products with no ill effects. Every tank is different. I like how he has the data sheet that shows how his product are pharmaceutical grade.

 

[watchguy123]

Does it kill aefw?

 

[d_adler]

@Miami_reefer

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I think the product line is just another product line, I've not seen anything too special to prove it's better.
If they make a rtn destroyer like reefgrow I'll lose all respect for them lol...

Btw, I used to use Bayer all the time. Over the period of a year or so, I had a >50% necrosis rate for those that were dipped with Bayer. Imo, it's not meant for corals, and it is indeed toxic.
After stopping that and using at most a light peroxide dip, I've not had any necrosis events in a few years..

 

[143MPCo]

I had a >50% necrosis rate for those that were dipped with Bayer. Imo, it's not meant for corals, and it is indeed toxic.

I've seen similar issues with a few choice corals, and why I'm still on the hunt for something a little less detrimental.

 

[BrotherReef]

Does it kill aefw?

It does kill aefw.

 

[BetURWrasse]

I've only lost 2 corals after Bayer dips and they were wild. I'll still be ordering some of this though and give it a shot.

 

[BrotherReef]

I've only lost 2 corals after Bayer dips and they were wild. I'll still be ordering some of this though and give it a shot.

He has a 2x, 3x, and 4x coming out soon.

 

[Shep]

I think one of the reasons people like Bayer so much is that it is very affordable compared to actual coral dip.

 

[Shep]

Does it kill aefw?

It does kill aefw.

But does it kill the eggs? That's what really matters, other dips will kill or at least stun the adults.

 

[jcdeng]

I have lost zero corals to bayers, strange...

 

[BrotherReef]

But does it kill the eggs? That's what really matters, other dips will kill or at least stun the adults.

No I don't believe so unless the 3x or 4x vers I oh does.

 

[143MPCo]

related information on ingredients...

Ingredients
Oleum Abiets .75%
Oleum Limon .75%
Oleum Lavender .75%
Total Active Ingredients 2.25%

But does it kill the eggs? That's what really matters, other dips will kill or at least stun the adults.

That's the bigger issue I want to know if it addresses.

I think one of the reasons people like Bayer so much is that it is very affordable compared to actual coral dip.

I 100% agree cost is always a driving factor but, when it nuks a coral that cost someone $200.00, this cost although subjective, seem less of a factor; no?

 

[bct15]

I've dipped hundreds of acros in bayers and tank water solution and I have never lost one acro from the dip. I've even dipped the uber dip sensitive deep water acros with no ill effects.

I have always operated under the understanding that the system in which bayers kills pests is non existent on corals, which renders the bayers "invisible" to the corals.

 

[143MPCo]

I've dipped hundreds of acros in bayers and tank water solution and I have never lost one acro from the dip

I might be wrong but, no one claimed they "lost" a specimen, the comment was "necrosis" (necrosis is caused by factors external to the cell or tissue, such as infection, toxins, or trauma which result in the unregulated digestion of cell components.) and I have witness this only on the base of a small percentage of specimens dipped with bayer.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

So I decided to look up the ingredients just now as I've never done it, looks like bayer is BAAAAAAD stuff for coral dip. I would bet there's more effects, we just don't know about them yet.

Aquatic life[edit]
Imidacloprid is highly toxic on an acute basis to aquatic invertebrates, with EC50 values = 0.037 - 0.115 ppm. It is also highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates on a chronic basis (effects on growth and movement): NOAEC/LOAEC = 1.8/3.6 ppm in daphnids; NOAEC = 0.001 in Chironomus midge, and NOAEC/LOAEC = 0.00006/0.0013 ppm in mysid shrimp. Its toxicity to fish is relatively low; however, the EPA has requested review of secondary effects on fish with food chains that include sensitive aquatic invertebrates.[13]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imidacloprid

The research, published in the peer-reviewed journal PLOS One, found that 70% less invertebrate species were found in water polluted with the insecticide compared to clean water. There were also far fewer individuals of each species in the polluted water. "This is the first study to show this happens in the field," van der Sluijs said. As well as killing mayflies, midges, and molluscs, the pollution could have a knock-on effect on birds such as swallows that rely on flying insects for food, he added.
http://www.desdemonadespair.net/2013/05/worlds-most-widely-used-insecticide-is.html

Like most pyrethroids, it is highly toxic to fish, invertebrates, and insects, but it is far less toxic to humans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyfluthrin

Aquatic Ecotoxicity
All Toxic Effects for Organism Group
Organism Group Effects Noted

Amphibians Development, Growth, Immunological, Mortality

Annelida Population

Crustaceans Mortality

Fish Behavior, Biochemistry, Cell(s), Growth, Hormone(s), Mortality, Population

Insects Development, Intoxication, Mortality, Population

Molluscs Intoxication, Mortality, Population

NematodesandFlatworms Population

Phytoplankton Biochemistry, Population

Zooplankton Accumulation, Intoxication, Mortality, Population

~ Un-Assigned Development, Mortality, Population

View All Aquatic Ecotoxicity Studies and References

Summary of Acute Toxicity for Organism Group
Organism Group Average Acute Toxicity Acute Toxicity Range

Crustaceans Very Highly Toxic Very Highly Toxic

Fish Very Highly Toxic Very Highly Toxic

Insects Very Highly Toxic Very Highly Toxic

Molluscs Slightly Toxic Not Acutely Toxic to Slightly Toxic

Zooplankton Very Highly Toxic Very Highly Toxic

~ Un-Assigned Very Highly Toxic Very Highly Toxic

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33504

 

[bct15]

I glimpsed at the above link, do you have anything that discusses it's effects on saltwater (that article seems to focus on a couple insects that live in or near freshwater)? Specifically, anything on it's acute effects on stony corals?

IMO that is what you would want, something that kills everything but coral...that is the purpose of the dip anyway.

 

[ahmed.boomer]

This is how he explained it to me at MACNA when he asked me what I used and which corals I kept (paraphrasing):

-I said I used Bayer dip and kept mostly SPS.
-He said that was probably the best thing to do for SPS [Edit: Against pests]. (That's something to note, and probably the best takeaway from his)
-Then he said Bayer should not be used on soft corals, euphyllia , and softer tissue corals because it can damage the corals extremely easily.
-He said Bayer would be better for the treatment of AEFW and does a better job of killing them.

There may have been a couple things I missed, but the takeaway I got from the conversation was this will be fine as a general dip, and be "better" than coralRX or CoralRevive. If you use Bayer to dip your SPS, keep using Bayer. If you're not keeping SPS, you're going to be better off getting this. It will work for SPS as well, but Bayer will be stronger and has a greater health hazard.

Hope this helps!