Alternative dips, share your experiences...

[143MPCo]

This is how he explained it to me at MACNA

who is "he"?

 

[ahmed.boomer]

who is "he"?

The gentleman who was running the ME Corals booth (the guy in the video from the first post). I have his card at home if you'd like a name.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I glimpsed at the above link, do you have anything that discusses it's effects on saltwater (that article seems to focus on a couple insects that live in or near freshwater)? Specifically, anything on it's acute effects on stony corals?

IMO that is what you would want, something that kills everything but coral...that is the purpose of the dip anyway.

That was from a quick 15 minute search.. Look at the lower portion of all that, (aquatic ecotoxicity) they DO include data and toxicity on marine life. Looks like the research is starting, but given this one single statement, that's enough for me:
found that 70% less invertebrate species were found in water polluted with the insecticide compared to clean water

I found no matter the species, at least 10% had necrosis and died within a couple weeks after the dip, and I used pretty weak dosages.

I think overall the mentality in the hobby of 'I have not seen any adverse effects' is trumping actual research and scientific analysis, and that's pretty dangerous. Take asbestos, that took more than 80 years before it was more than 50% acknowledged to cause cancer. By the time grandchildren are grown up and we're all dead, we'll probably get the wag of the finger on our sloppy and callous reef keeping practices.

 

[bct15]

Funny you'd say that, since my occupation specifically involves scientific research and analysis. Even more strange, is the comment from the guy who makes the stuff claiming that bayers is better for SPS.

I don't see how you can relate a paper about dragon fly larvae in a runoff ditch to the effects the same substance has on stony corals. They are totally different creatures, and the article provides no viable information to dipping corals.

It's no secret that you need to rinse your corals before putting them back in the display, because bayers kills everything but the coral. Again, that is what a coral dip does.

 

[ahmed.boomer]

Funny you'd say that, since my occupation specifically involves scientific research and analysis. Even more strange, is the comment from the guy who makes the stuff claiming that bayers is better for SPS.

I don't see how you can relate a paper about dragon fly larvae in a runoff ditch to the effects the same substance has on stony corals. They are totally different creatures, and the article provides no viable information to dipping corals.

It's no secret that you need to rinse your corals before putting them back in the display, because bayers kills everything but the coral. Again, that is what a coral dip does.

Let me clarify, he said it was better for dipping acros, if pest like AEFW are your main concern. You maybe be correct, but I'm just trying to clarify what he told me. He did say Bayer was much harder on the coral itself though, so he aired caution, but he didn't shoot down the idea of Bayer and said he had used it in the past.

 

[143MPCo]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/do-we-know-what-is-in-bayer.213890/

[/QUOTE="Randy Holmes-Farley, post: 2449923, member: 45227"]From the MSDS, we can see the primary ingredients:

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/18/1878a705-d1d0-483a-9f1f-b27350228f1a.pdf

SECTION 2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Hazardous Component Name CAS-No. Average % by Weight
Imidacloprid 138261-41-3 0.15
beta-Cyfluthrin 68359-37-5 0.05
Wood dust


None of those things will show up in a Triton test as they are organic molecules. Could there be an inorganic contaminant in them that is a problem? Maybe. Something like copper.

But, IMO, it is more likely the compounds themselves, or their breakdown products are the concern.

The first one breaks down in a few hours or less in a lit tank (may stay longer int eh dark), but what it breaks down into might still be a toxicity concern. Not sure how long the other stays in a reef tank environment.

The first one is very toxic to aqueous (such as mysid shrimp)invertebrates. The second one is described as "highly toxic to fish, invertebrates, and insects". Those seem a reasonable place to put suspected blame without needing to look further.

 

[143MPCo]

[/QUOTE="Rob.D, post: 2449591, member: 14204"]Hi Randy, there is a small group of us reefers that live in the middle TN and E. Tn area that over the past year or so have experienced RTN, STN, and general color loss of LPS and SPS corals....
now, these are not your run of the mill reefers or newbs.....we are all fairly well rounded reefers that maintain our systems and are generally a group of responsible reefkeepers.

On to my main question, I suspect that our use of Bayer insecticide used as our go to dip for corals might have a chemical that has been building up in our tanks for the past few years and now is at a saturation point, causing negative effects on our systems.

Is there any way to find out what is in Bayer?

Would a Triton test show any abnormalities that would point a finger at Bayer?

 

[143MPCo]

...if nothing else the two quoted post above are reasons for concern, IMO more testing in a controlled environment is the only way to either confirm the plausibility of this dipping solution being the problem or remove it from the equation.

Either way and after reading the below I'm sending the product back to shed and it's intended purpose.

"The first one is very toxic to aqueous (such as mysid shrimp)invertebrates. The second one is described as "highly toxic to fish, invertebrates, and insects". Those seem a reasonable place to put suspected blame without needing to look further."

 

[miyags]

Unless they sell this product at or below the cost of bayer, it's going to be a hard sale. This whole thread seems like a free marketing gimmick to me.

 

[143MPCo]

This whole thread seems like a free marketing gimmick to me.

my wallets a little lite, was wondering why
...alast no that was not the intent.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

That was from a quick 15 minute search.. Look at the lower portion of all that, (aquatic ecotoxicity) they DO include data and toxicity on marine life. Looks like the research is starting, but given this one single statement, that's enough for me:
found that 70% less invertebrate species were found in water polluted with the insecticide compared to clean water

I found no matter the species, at least 10% had necrosis and died within a couple weeks after the dip, and I used pretty weak dosages.

I think overall the mentality in the hobby of 'I have not seen any adverse effects' is trumping actual research and scientific analysis, and that's pretty dangerous. Take asbestos, that took more than 80 years before it was more than 50% acknowledged to cause cancer. By the time grandchildren are grown up and we're all dead, we'll probably get the wag of the finger on our sloppy and callous reef keeping practices.

I'm having a hard time making sense of how Bayer is supposed to be so toxic to corals, since many of us have been using Bayer long-term and have had no coral loss from its use. Isn't the use of Bayer by a large sample of hobbyists who have had ZERO adverse effects reasonably scientific? I mean, I get that we're not talking about controlled lab tests, but the fact that so many people use it with no death at all in their tanks seems to negate the idea that Bayer = coral death.

Maybe this new product IS better than Bayer, but to say that Bayer is BAD and shouldn't be used just doesn't seem to make logical sense IMO.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I'm having a hard time making sense of how Bayer is supposed to be so toxic to corals, since many of us have been using Bayer long-term and have had no coral loss from its use. Isn't the use of Bayer by a large sample of hobbyists who have had ZERO adverse effects reasonably scientific? I mean, I get that we're not talking about controlled lab tests, but the fact that so many people use it with no death at all in their tanks seems to negate the idea that Bayer = coral death.

Maybe this new product IS better than Bayer, but to say that Bayer is BAD and shouldn't be used just doesn't seem to make logical sense IMO.

If you analyze it from a statistical sense, with complete disregard to experiences, you have a 50% chance. But just as you say 'a large sample of hobbyists have had ZERO adverse effects', can you provide a number of those who HAVE had adverse effects in defense? Psychology is a powerful tool when one is hopeful.
I would bet many don't want to talk about it for fear of looking stupid, or they don't attribute the adverse effect to the dip, or they misdiagnosed the problem to something else. These are plausible scenarios, and I don't doubt they exist because we're all human.

But when looking at the greater picture, we know it's a toxic substance to many life-forms. And how many times have you heard "corals are fragile"?
I prefer to play it safe despite a lack of evidence. Unless you're saying 1000 people saying it's ok because they've used it 5 years, makes it ok? Under those guidelines then smoking, drinking, many drugs, asbestos, drinking diet soda, drinking soda, xrays, etc, are all ok.