Ammonia Spike

[_cpate3_]

Just made a post about how everything was going fine in my tank earlier today. Got home and my ammonia alert showed a slight spike and changed from “safe” to “alarm”. I went into a panic and did an 80% water change and added some stresszyme to combat this and the ammonia alert is turning back to yellow. I will be heading to my LFS for some more bacteria tomorrow to help.

My Fluval 13.5 is only a month old with a pretty hefty bio load for its size because I rushed it even though I know I shouldn’t have… I went a week and 3 days without doing a water change instead of my usual 1 week so I’m wondering if I just waited too long on the water change or if I need to change my feeding habits/bio load and how would I figure out which one it is?

My stock list is:
2x small ocellaris clownfish
1x small wheelers goby
1x tiger pistol shrimp
1x blood red fire shrimp
1x anemone crab
1x small rock flower anemone
4x nassarius snails
4x blue legged hermits
1x AOI Zoa
1x Pipe Organ
1x GSP

Any help, do I need to remove livestock to lower ammonia, or just more bacteria and media and let it ride out? I’ve done so much research but this is the point where I’m stuck if someone could help me please

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Did something die?

 

[_cpate3_]

Did something die?

Thankfully no I caught it early and did the water change in time. I just need to know how to prevent this from happening again

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Thankfully no I caught it early and did the water change in time. I just need to know how to prevent this from happening again

I meant something may have died and is causing the spike.
A cycled tank shouldn't be producing ammonia without something dying/decaying, excessive overfeeding, etc.

 

[_cpate3_]

I meant something may have died and is causing the spike.
A cycled tank shouldn't be producing ammonia without something dying/decaying, excessive overfeeding, etc.

Unless the Goby or Pistol shrimp died overnight, everyone is accounted for. Would a dead Zoa be causing it? Because it hasn’t been open for about 5 days now and looks unwell

 

[vetteguy53081]

Just made a post about how everything was going fine in my tank earlier today. Got home and my ammonia alert showed a slight spike and changed from “safe” to “alarm”. I went into a panic and did an 80% water change and added some stresszyme to combat this and the ammonia alert is turning back to yellow. I will be heading to my LFS for some more bacteria tomorrow to help.

My Fluval 13.5 is only a month old with a pretty hefty bio load for its size because I rushed it even though I know I shouldn’t have… I went a week and 3 days without doing a water change instead of my usual 1 week so I’m wondering if I just waited too long on the water change or if I need to change my feeding habits/bio load and how would I figure out which one it is?

My stock list is:
2x small ocellaris clownfish
1x small wheelers goby
1x tiger pistol shrimp
1x blood red fire shrimp
1x anemone crab
1x small rock flower anemone
4x nassarius snails
4x blue legged hermits
1x AOI Zoa
1x Pipe Organ
1x GSP

Any help, do I need to remove livestock to lower ammonia, or just more bacteria and media and let it ride out? I’ve done so much research but this is the point where I’m stuck if someone could help me please

Automatically do a water change to lower any possibilities of high ammonia
I do not have faith in these badges but to verify its accuracy, take a water sample to an LFS that does not use API tests and have them check your ammonia level and see what readings they come up with

 

[Lavey29]

What does your filtration consist of?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Just made a post about how everything was going fine in my tank earlier today. Got home and my ammonia alert showed a slight spike and changed from “safe” to “alarm”. I went into a panic and did an 80% water change and added some stresszyme to combat this and the ammonia alert is turning back to yellow. I will be heading to my LFS for some more bacteria tomorrow to help.

My Fluval 13.5 is only a month old with a pretty hefty bio load for its size because I rushed it even though I know I shouldn’t have… I went a week and 3 days without doing a water change instead of my usual 1 week so I’m wondering if I just waited too long on the water change or if I need to change my feeding habits/bio load and how would I figure out which one it is?

My stock list is:
2x small ocellaris clownfish
1x small wheelers goby
1x tiger pistol shrimp
1x blood red fire shrimp
1x anemone crab
1x small rock flower anemone
4x nassarius snails
4x blue legged hermits
1x AOI Zoa
1x Pipe Organ
1x GSP

Any help, do I need to remove livestock to lower ammonia, or just more bacteria and media and let it ride out? I’ve done so much research but this is the point where I’m stuck if someone could help me please

I agree, that tank is about "full" and is still very new. You may end up battling ammonia for a week or two. Water changes of course help, but remember that ammonia continues to build, depending on how much beneficial bacteria is active in the tank. I've seen small tanks that had high ammonia, were given an 80% water changes, and 24 hours later, were right back to where they were at. Also, some brands of sea salt have traces of ammonia in it - so that decreases the ability of water changes to reduce the ammonia to zero.

Don't leave uneaten food in the tank, but don't restrict the food for the fish just to control ammonia.

What brand of bacteria have you added? They are not all equal.
You might consider picking up another type of ammonia test kit, then you can have more accurate testing results than the badge (I don't like the API kit though, and that is what many pet stores stock).

Jay

 

[brandon429]

State how many days this tank ran without the spike and post a full tank shot in white light to show all animals just fine

This is a false alarm triggered not by tank unhealth or any observable decline but merely a misreading test kit Jay has said many times isn't reliable

Post the full tank pic in white light, crashing tanks look like they're dying and all fish hover gasping or they flash uncontrollably

When ammonia isn't in control, it looks that way other than the cheap test kit

 

[brandon429]

Make sure to post the full tank picture in white light it'll be the only counter balance to the panic about to sustain for days on end

Symptomless ammonia fear only driven by a non digital test kit is old cycling science

This tank is well past its cycle close date

You were looking for the fear ahead of time, we'd discussed this yesterday before the test kit interpretation that your cycle isn't at risk, the pics will show it. There are no symptomless ammonia crashes in reefing.

When a reef is crashing due to ammonia noncontrol pics will show it, things die, and no cheap kit is needed to see the crash in progress

Packing that many fish in skipping preps for disease is the risk, we discussed that in your original cycle and that was skipped past, the feeding events that many fish command can easily overwork that test kit but it doesn't mean your cycle is broken weeks after it was finished


I have a thread where the ammonia badge indicated in a nine month old reef, symptomless, that the cycle broke and nothing was wrong in the tank. That won't factor here however even if posted, this cycle is deemed broken simply off what you posted with no other verifications requested (such as a white light tank pic) and that's how it'll remain until you're driven to take drastic action. This is how it always goes down with old cycling science - pure fear and doubt is coming and no mention of disease prep requirements.

The food you're adding to the packed tank is the test kit driver but it'll just cause you algae issues soon it's not going to crash. When a fish dies from being packed in a non prepped for disease tank that'll seal the perception the cycle was broken, we have this pattern on file for pages in the false ammonia alert thread collection. There's no coming back from this perception in nearly all cases we pick and choose when to believe non digital test kits there is no real standard

 

[Garf]

This from the OPs build thread made me chuckle;

“Go check out @brandon429 he is a genius at this. Long story short it is a way to cycle your tank in 10 days without having to test parameters based off of new cycling science. “
“
I did @brandon429 testless cycling method and my ammonia and
nitrite hit 0 in no time! ”. LOL.

Thankfully no I caught it early and did the water change in time. I just need to know how to prevent this from happening again

I think you’ve been misdirected into a shallow “Fish In” cycle. These can be a bit wobbly, but low levels as you report only last a few days at a time and are rarely high enough to do any damage. Just monitor, not ignore as Brandon would suggest.

 

[brandon429]

@Jay Hemdal

I feel it's accurate to say you've never once seen a digital measurement nh3 show on a nano a hovering daily for toxic ammonia that was symptomless for the entire system after cycling completed

Surface area is either enough and nh3 is handled or its insufficient and the system crashes, like when a low surface area qt setup fails to control ammonia and the animals have the expected symptoms and losses.

I believe it's accurate to say you've only seen it indicated on non digital hobby kits, the kind that are stated unreliable in other threads is that true? I'm earnestly interested in knowing how a reefer runs a nano system in the same ratios as any other nano but they reach a balance that can't control ammonia but the system runs fine each day. That one statement you made above fuels a fire that is incorrect, i don't think it has been seen

That statement will sell tons of extra bacteria to reefers who were never told adding more surface area is the way to handle a true noncontrol issue, were this such an issue. That statement sets back updated cycling science tremendously.

It is incorrect microbiology to tell any reader that they lack bacteria this long after a common cycling chart says they don't

 

[brandon429]

Please post those white light tank pictures, that's a fair balance request. I saw the tank pics before the perceived event, it wasn't crashing, the bacteria didn't change the picture presentation that's key

Symptoms never changed before or after the alert

Cycles don't undo weeks after closing

Insufficient surface area kills and kills fast

These non digital kits have a slow lag report time for counterbalance; makes a cycle seem dead when in fact a feeding event or a dead snail that doesn't crash a tank is processed quickly but the kit lags for days sometimes.

False ammonia alerts always come from cheap test kits that aren't digital and no seneye owner would be here today thinking the cycle died while the tank works normally

Here is eight pages of this exact thread playing out exactly as written for a couple years now, caused by non digital test kits

A false badge alert is inside as well.

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Garf]

False ammonia alerts always come from cheap test kits that aren't digital and no seneye owner would be here today thinking

I don’t have a seneye but I think they use the same gas permeable membrane chemistry as the Seachem ammonia alert, just read with a magic eye, instead of a human eye .

 

[_cpate3_]

Please post those white light tank pictures, that's a fair balance request. I saw the tank pics before the perceived event, it wasn't crashing, the bacteria didn't change the picture presentation that's key

Symptoms never changed before or after the alert

Cycles don't undo weeks after closing

Insufficient surface area kills and kills fast

False ammonia alerts always come from cheap test kits that aren't digital and no seneye owner would be here today thinking the cycle died while the tank works normally

Here is eight pages of this exact thread playing out exactly as written for a couple years now, caused by non digital test kits

A false badge alert is inside as well.

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

Filtration is an intank media basket

- Filter floss
- ClearFX Pro
- Matrix media

 

[brandon429]

cpate truly thank you for that. I know it's hard to be in the middle of a cycling tussle. the reason I'm passionate about it is because it's a changing science within the hobby and without some press for change, nothing will change and help us diagnose tanks better and more accurately. each decade has to be changed from the prior, to progress, thank you for posting for sure. your concern is one that literally thousands of people face weekly in the hobby: what to do when something seems broken. I won't add this thread to that collection above, I merely wanted to reference that collection above to balance out some of the patterned details we see here in your valid concern thread.

that tank is indeed not overstocked for its gallonage and surface area. I recommend that 100% of reefers cease testing for ammonia after the cycle for these very reasons.

if a snail dies, and a legit spike happens, a reef tank can handle that no prob which is why we don't need to test and plan a reaction for it.

the only time a cycle will be overcame still doesn't require testing: when dead fish are littered about due to disease loss or hardware/avoidable procedural errors by the keeper.

if a power outage ceases motion in a reef tank and the waste can't be moved across surfaces, that's atypical, we wouldn't use an ammonia test kit to rectify the situation we'd instate motion somehow.

 

[_cpate3_]

cpate truly thank you for that. I know it's hard to be in the middle of a cycling tussle. the reason I'm passionate about it is because it's a changing science within the hobby and without some press for change, nothing will change and help us diagnose tanks better and more accurately. each decade has to be changed from the prior, to progress, thank you for posting for sure. your concern is one that literally thousands of people face weekly in the hobby: what to do when something seems broken. I won't add this thread to that collection above, I merely wanted to reference that collection above to balance out some of the patterned details we see here in your valid concern thread.

that tank is indeed not overstocked for its gallonage and surface area. I recommend that 100% of reefers cease testing for ammonia after the cycle for these very reasons.

if a snail dies, and a legit spike happens, a reef tank can handle that no prob which is why we don't need to test and plan a reaction for it.

the only time a cycle will be overcame still doesn't require testing: when dead fish are littered about due to disease loss or hardware/avoidable procedural errors by the keeper.

if a power outage ceases motion in a reef tank and the waste can't be moved across surfaces, that's atypical, we wouldn't use an ammonia test kit to rectify the situation we'd instate motion somehow.

That all makes sense and thank you all for the help. The water changed seemed to do the trick as the ammonia alert turned back to 0ppm and everyone as shown in the video was accounted for and happy today. I’ll just keep up on maybe more frequent water changes for a week and monitor everything more closely!

 

[MnFish1]

@cpate. Can you tell us your pH? Did you happen to add any buffer, etc - that could have shifted 'NH4' to NH3 - which is what the alert badge measures? (seachem - which is I assume what you're using?).

I'm going to partly disagree with @brandon429 that should be 'ignored' until we have more information. When was the last time you added anything new? How much are you feeding. In my experiments, Ammonia consuming bacteria (that consume only ammonia) - will not rise to a maximum level until there is enough food to sustain them. In other words - let's pretend you have a 13.5 gallon tank with 4 snails in it for a month - then you add 6 clownfish and start feeding. It is my opinion that you ammonia will rise until the bacteria that control ammonia grow to a higher level. The good news is - this should not take a long time as compared to a bare sterile tank.

Testing error is another big issue (though I have not had a problem with Seachem alerts - or API) - if you're using a liquid test, I would either way double check with another reliable test.

Hope this helps. PS - I agree with @Brandon that the fish not showing symptoms is a positive. However - and 'alarm' reading - is usually not high enough to cause significant distress in clownfish. The fact that one of your zoos may be having an issue - may point to an ammonia issue.

 

[MnFish1]

That all makes sense and thank you all for the help. The water changed seemed to do the trick as the ammonia alert turned back to 0ppm and everyone as shown in the video was accounted for and happy today. I’ll just keep up on maybe more frequent water changes for a week and monitor everything more closely!

By the way - this suggests that your seachem alert was reading correctly - and that the ammonia was 'elevated'. I would like to point out - that I don't think large water changes are the solution here - because if you take away the 'food' (ammonia) that the bacteria need - the bacteria will never grow enough (or it will take much longer). Curious did your Zoa perk up?

 

[MnFish1]

PS to the OP - I'm not saying anyone is 'wrong' - however, I'm going to comment on something that happens all the time in reefing - that is often overlooked. Let's take this as an example - you said you were using xxxxx testless cycling method - yet you were testing - and now you're worried. It's like the person that says "I'm using @Jay Hemdal 's quarantine protocol but I only did it for a week, and now my fish have Ich". It is important to follow a protocol if you're going to use one. Of course - if things are going south, a change may need to be made or questions asked. I'm not criticizing you - but my guess is that had you not tested your ammonia, your tank would have been fine (though IMHO, it is a bit heavily stocked). If I were you - I would stop water changes and consider a bacterial product like 'Fritz 9000' per the directions.