Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[Torqued]

I suppose I will try the silicate method then...seeing I already apparently have some diatoms in the mix, perhaps fueling them will get things moving faster than bacteria. I still think I would prefer to switch to the bacteria method AFTER, so that nothing else can establish itself afterwards though....

That sound like a reasonable approach?

 

[Neoalchemist]

I suppose I will try the silicate method then...seeing I already apparently have some diatoms in the mix, perhaps fueling them will get things moving faster than bacteria. I still think I would prefer to switch to the bacteria method AFTER, so that nothing else can establish itself afterwards though....

That sound like a reasonable approach?

That's pretty much what I did fighting ostreopsis. Just always make sure no3 and po4 don't bottom out. I'm maintaining no3 at 10 and po4 at .06 for as long as I can. P.e. is good, growth is good, and color is great. Clean up crew is busy but the tank has looked great for a long time.

 

[Torqued]

@randyholmesfarley does this look like ok stuff? It says its water glass. With Prime shipping, its just as cheap as other options ive seen, AND i should get it in two days. This would be used for sparking a diatom bloom to combat dinos

https://www.amazon.com/HUMCO-272730001-Sodium-Silicate-Solution/dp/B0773DDMJ4/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=sodium+silicate&qid=1557179029&refinements=p_85:2470955011&rnid=2470954011&rps=1&s=gateway&sr=8-4

 

[Torqued]

More dino ****...

 

[Neoalchemist]

More dino ****...

I literally felt your sigh at the end.

 

[taricha]

Pods are better in the recovery portion of the fight. Pods dont stand a chance when dinos are in full bloom.
Perhaps @taricha can comment on the blackout part. I believe he has done some test with amphidinium living happily for something like 6 weeks in total darkness.
I personally haven't been able to blackout long enough to affect amphidinium and blackout was one of my best tools against other dinos.

I've seen that paper and the results hold up... for some strains.
Amphidinium carterae is one that we'd call a small cell amphidinium (there may be many other species of small cell amphidinium we see, species determination is impossible).
I had a culture of small cell amphidinium that was toast at 8 days of darkness in line with the paper, the effect seems to be a programmed cell death, as the cells self destruct instead of wasting away.
Large cell amphidinium, which is more common - I have kept in total darkness for 14 days with zero harm to the culture. They didn't even slow down or try to conserve energy. Active and swimming/gliding in large numbers.
So I don't recommend extended darkness as a general tool, because two very closely related types have total opposite reactions.

 

[Entz]

I've seen that paper and the results hold up... for some strains.
Amphidinium carterae is one that we'd call a small cell amphidinium (there may be many other species of small cell amphidinium we see, species determination is impossible).
I had a culture of small cell amphidinium that was toast at 8 days of darkness in line with the paper, the effect seems to be a programmed cell death, as the cells self destruct instead of wasting away.
Large cell amphidinium, which is more common - I have kept in total darkness for 14 days with zero harm to the culture. They didn't even slow down or try to conserve energy. Active and swimming/gliding in large numbers.
So I don't recommend extended darkness as a general tool, because two very closely related types have total opposite reactions.

Thanks that is good to know. It may be worth a try for mine if the normal methods don't work. Silicates, trying to keep PO4 up and removing the worst parts of my sand seems to be pushing them back /crossing fingers. Removing the sand has shown me one thing ... where detritus and uneaten food usually ends up in my tank.. Guess where the Dinos were the worst and used to thrive ;Bookworm I was feeding them

<tiny edit: PO4>

 

[taricha]

Removing the sand has shown me one thing ... where detritus and uneaten food usually ends up in my tank.. Guess where the Dinos were the worst and used to thrive ;Bookworm I was feeding them

In my tank the amphidinium always followed cyano, and the cyano followed where detritus built up.

 

[Torqued]

In my tank the amphidinium always followed cyano, and the cyano followed where detritus built up.

Seems to be the case for me too. I got amphidinium only after I used Chemiclean to wipe out cyano......

I know you guys have said carbon dosing and bacteria have not been successful, but I think there may be merit to using Dr Tims Waste Away, which is designed to go after this detritus.

One final note....I have very large particle sand. They are ReefFlakes, which I intentionally got so I could run high flow w/out blowing shtuff around. I have a feeling the large particle size is what is trapping detritus, even with high flow. I am considering actually getting some fine sand to mix in to fill in the gaps, and hopefully help prevent the detritus build up. I think using the waste away on a regular basis will also help in this regard, along with regular carbon dosing (which I def plan to implement once the dinos are under control).

 

[aras]

Don't want to declare victory too soon, but it looks like I've finally beaten large cell amphidinium! To help others here is what I did (which is not that much):

• Stopped carbon dosing (NOPOX), coral feeding (Red Sea Energy), and trace element dosing (Red Sea Colours).
• Stopped water changes for about a month.

After stopping NOPOX nitrates slowly went up from 2 to 8, phosphates from 0.01 to close to 0.1. After a few weeks gravel (until then completely covered in dino) started to get occupied by some other algae types, including chrysophytes. After another week or so pretty much everything got covered in cyano. I've let cyano to stay almost untouched (other than not letting it overtake corals) for about 2-3 weeks. After that syphoned all cyano together with the top layer of sand. And that's it! It's been over a month with no visible traces amphidinium nor any other nastiness. Normally, dino would return a few days after syphoning.

I've done with carbon dosing for sure. Instead started refugium with some chaeto. Haven't decided if or when will restart Red Sea colours and energy...


Before


Now

 

[saltyhog]

Don't want to declare victory too soon, but it looks like I've finally beaten large cell amphidinium! To help others here is what I did (which is not that much):

• Stopped carbon dosing (NOPOX), coral feeding (Red Sea Energy), and trace element dosing (Red Sea Colours).
• Stopped water changes for about a month.

After stopping NOPOX nitrates slowly went up from 2 to 8, phosphates from 0.01 to close to 0.1. After a few weeks gravel (until then completely covered in dino) started to get occupied by some other algae types, including chrysophytes. After another week or so pretty much everything got covered in cyano. I've let cyano to stay almost untouched (other than not letting it overtake corals) for about 2-3 weeks. After that syphoned all cyano together with the top layer of sand. And that's it! It's been over a month with no visible traces amphidinium nor any other nastiness. Normally, dino would return a few days after syphoning.

I've done with carbon dosing for sure. Instead started refugium with some chaeto. Haven't decided if or when will restart Red Sea colours and energy...


Before


Now

When you say siphoned the top layer of sand, can you tell us what you mean? I usually use a gravel vacuum when I do a water change and vacuum my sand. Did you actually remove the top layer of the sand?

Congratulations! Well done!

 

[aras]

When you say siphoned the top layer of sand, can you tell us what you mean? I usually use a gravel vacuum when I do a water change and vacuum my sand. Did you actually remove the top layer of the sand?

Yes, I vacuum my sand regularly as well. But in this case I actually removed top layer completely together with cyano and everything else that was there (using hose without vacuuming attachement). I have tried this few times before (while still dosing carbon and other things) but dino would come back in a few days.

 

[Neoalchemist]

Yes, I vacuum my sand regularly as well. But in this case I actually removed top layer completely together with cyano and everything else that was there (using hose without vacuuming attachement). I have tried this few times before (while still dosing carbon and other things) but dino would come back in a few days.

I use a hose zip tied to a cleaning handle! Super ghetto but works great for control in getting just the surface dinos, cyano and the sand they stick to.

 

[Neoalchemist]

Next, I want to try and suck out aiptasia while burning their foot with a laser[emoji16]

 

[Victoria M]

I am not seeing an improvement in the dinos, but I am seeing my fish behavior improve, in that they are grazing on nori again, and no snail deaths have been observed.
I have severally limited water changes, only small water replacments for vacuming and replacing some of the water that can not be replaced because I do not want to add visible dinos back to the tank.
BTW dosing peroxide into the siphoned and filtered water did not seem to make any difference in dinos in the DT.
Still using Dr. Tims waste away.
No sand disturbing, have not removed it yet.
I had to turn on the skimmer Sunday due to cloudy water.
I added a Brightwell Silica Sunday at 1 drop per 40 gallons which is half their recommended starting dose.
I have not ran the magnum filter for several days. ( I was out of town.) When I clean that filter it is WAY less dirty than my filter socks. It makes me doubt its efficacy. But should I restart it?
My refugium light which is usually on a reverse schedule has been on 24/7? Which schedule should I run?
The refugium is growing weird slimy green algae and some growth of the chaeto is noted. I figure this is good?
I am starting to see some red slim cyanobacteria...which is good right?
None of this feels good

 

[dwest]

I am not seeing an improvement in the dinos, but I am seeing my fish behavior improve, in that they are grazing on nori again, and no snail deaths have been observed.
I have severally limited water changes, only small water replacments for vacuming and replacing some of the water that can not be replaced because I do not want to add visible dinos back to the tank.
BTW dosing peroxide into the siphoned and filtered water did not seem to make any difference in dinos in the DT.
Still using Dr. Tims waste away.
No sand disturbing, have not removed it yet.
I had to turn on the skimmer Sunday due to cloudy water.
I added a Brightwell Silica Sunday at 1 drop per 40 gallons which is half their recommended starting dose.
I have not ran the magnum filter for several days. ( I was out of town.) When I clean that filter it is WAY less dirty than my filter socks. It makes me doubt its efficacy. But should I restart it?
My refugium light which is usually on a reverse schedule has been on 24/7? Which schedule should I run?
The refugium is growing weird slimy green algae and some growth of the chaeto is noted. I figure this is good?
I am starting to see some red slim cyanobacteria...which is good right?
None of this feels good

These are tough for sure. I think the fact that your snails are alive is a very good thing. Any yes, chaeto growth is good. Any algae growth is good at this point. Keep replacing GAC once a week for now to keep dino toxin minimized.

I would dose the recommended amount of the sponge excel daily and hopefully you will see the red slime algae slowly be taken over by brownish diatoms. Slowly could mean many months. I saw them fast, but that is atypical. And I had removed my sand prior to dosing.

I suspect the slimy stuff in your fuge might be dinos as well. That happened to me. I took my fuge offline about a year ago and have not turned it back on. Do you need it for nutrient control? My fuge took away the nutrients I was adding to get rid of dinos. It didn’t make sense to me.

The magnum filter should remove very small particles. Like less than 5 micron small. So it would remove amphidinium if they actually went into the water column. Unfortunately they seem to stay on substrate. I used one. It was a pain to operate in my system and I didn’t see any improvements so I removed that as well. I don’t typically run filter socks, but I tried some 5 micron socks. I didn’t notice any improvements.

If the silicate dosing doesn’t help, I would consider removing sand. I removed my sand and that’s when I saw a huge improvement.

Good luck.

 

[Victoria M]

Sand is coming out soon. I Just need help from my family to do it. Have you put sand back?

 

[dwest]

Sand is coming out soon. I Just need help from my family to do it. Have you put sand back?

I have not added sand back. I would like to as I love sand. I miss my sand burying wrasses also. I guess I hate dinos more.

If you are very patient with silicate dosing. You may have a shot at keeping it.

 

[Victoria M]

I have not added sand back. I would like to as I love sand. I miss my sand burying wrasses also. I guess I hate dinos more.

If you are very patient with silicate dosing. You may have a shot at keeping it.

I was thinking of removing the sand to help get rid of the amphidinium faster. Then clean it and put it back in stages a few months.

 

[Victoria M]

I have not added sand back. I would like to as I love sand. I miss my sand burying wrasses also. I guess I hate dinos more.

If you are very patient with silicate dosing. You may have a shot at keeping it.

Do you plan to add sand again?