Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[taricha]

Following! I’m going to start dosing si. Is there some sort of calculator so I know how much to put in?

I haven't seen a Si calculator, but check my post number 56 just above, and I ran through the numbers for how to find and dose your target Si according to the 1:1 Si:N goal.

 

[Bebow]

On the other hand, the reports of success should be tempered a bit. Trace element limitation may hold down the dinos to some level, but perhaps not low enough to be what we need...

When you say 3ppm and 1ppm, do you mean on the hanna Si meter which reports SiO2, or did you convert to Si?
(You can multiply SiO2 number by 0.47 to get Si.)

Woops! My screw up! 3 mg/l silicate and 1 mg/l silicate! I’m using a Seachem test kit.

 

[taricha]

Woops! My screw up! 3 mg/l silicate and 1 mg/l silicate! I’m using a Seachem test kit.

Cool. I didn't know about this seachem test!
Does it give accurate readings with known sample? Because on paper it looks like a good test (though salifert has soured me on "compare shades of blue" tests.)
It apparently measures silicate SiO4 so multiply by 0.30 to get Si. So we're talking about 0.3ppm Si and .9ppm Si in your tank.

 

[Bebow]

On the other hand, the reports of success should be tempered a bit. Trace element limitation may hold down the dinos to some level, but perhaps not low enough to be what we need...


There aren't many amphidinium cells, maybe a half dozen - many of the moving things are actually diatoms. I'd peg the ratio at 10:1 diatoms to dinos (round cells), but the dinos are still there in some numbers.
Bebow, could you give details on tank circumstances and maintenance between the "disappearance" and "reappearance" of dinos?

I looked at 3 samples from the tank, overall a 10:1 ratio is close. What alarmed me was some of the sand areas where turning a darker brown, Dino’s seemed to be increasing.
Middle of February is when I did a sand sample and had to look hard to find a dino cell everything was diatoms. After around 2 weeks I started my water change system system back up, removing and adding around 1.5 gallons a day, I have around 230 gallons of war we volume. Dosed silicate maybe every other week testing at 1 mg/l silicate with seachem test kit. No3 was holding around 15 ppm, Po4 .6. Diatoms where present on the sand and glass but it wasn’t that bad. Added to my Clean up crew thinking I was in the clear, sand sifting tiger conchs and 2 diamond gobies. Two weeks ago I noticed a change in the diatom color, pulled out the scope and found Dino’s. I did add some Red Sea trace elements around the same time so maybe that’s the smoking gun along with water changes.

 

[Bebow]

Cool. I didn't know about this seachem test!
Does it give accurate readings with known sample? Because on paper it looks like a good test (though salifert has soured me on "compare shades of blue" tests.)
It apparently measures silicate SiO4 so multiply by 0.30 to get Si. So we're talking about 0.3ppm Si and .9ppm Si in your tank.

It’s a pain to read, shades of grey to blue grey. I’m sure my measurements aren’t real accurate.... Got it on Amazon for $13.

 

[Jaysin13]

Ok, I'm confused. I was told initially if I'm dosing then just keep doing it. Water changes as normal. But then I keep reading people talking about trace elements. So dosing and water changes seem very counterproductive. Is the goal to deplete the trace elements dinos utilize to starve them out?? Or try to keep the system as stable and normal as close to ideal as possible and have other algae and biodiversity out compete them??

 

[Bebow]

Ok, I'm confused. I was told initially if I'm dosing then just keep doing it. Water changes as normal. But then I keep reading people talking about trace elements. So dosing and water changes seem very counterproductive. Is the goal to deplete the trace elements dinos utilize to starve them out?? Or try to keep the system as stable and normal as close to ideal as possible and have other algae and biodiversity out compete them??

The theory is that some trace elements can feed the Dino’s. Which ones I don’t know. Water changes introduce new trace elements. When I had some success I had stopped all water changes. Stopped biopellet reactor, all carbon dosing and GFO.
Your last statement is spot on, stability and biodiversity are key.

 

[Jaysin13]

The theory is that some trace elements can feed the Dino’s. Which ones I don’t know. Water changes introduce new trace elements. When I had some success I had stopped all water changes. Stopped biopellet reactor, all carbon dosing and GFO.

I haven't done a water change in 1.5 months but have been dosing b-ionic. It contains trace elements..... I don't have a ton of corals and no sps. I guess I'll stop and see if that helps....... Thank you.

 

[Bebow]

There is one thing I need to add. In February I siphoned all the dino infested areas out, sand included. Cleaning the sand by normal methods had no effect, they seem to stick to the grains of sand. When they did not repopulate after a week that’s when I thought I had them beat. In the past they would come back next day.

 

[Bebow]

I haven't done a water change in 1.5 months but have been dosing b-ionic. It contains trace elements..... I don't have a ton of corals and no sps. I guess I'll stop and see if that helps....... Thank you.

Alkalinity and calcium should be ok, it’s The ones like iron, potassium and boron that may be the problem.

 

[Jaysin13]

There is one thing I need to add. In February I siphoned all the dino infested areas out, sand included. Cleaning the sand by normal methods had no effect, they seem to stick to the grains of sand. When they did not repopulate after a week that’s when I thought I had them beat. In the past they would come back next day.

But they came back right? I mean I doubt there is anyway to siphon all without just siphoning all the sand..... I have been at it for 3 weeks now trying to keep P and N at goal range and vacuuming sand through a 10 micron sock daily.... Although my P drops daily and I haven't nailed that down yet..... Seems like the population is way down but still there.

 

[Jaysin13]

Alkalinity and calcium should be ok, it’s The ones like iron, potassium and boron that may be the problem.

Yeah but I was using b-ionic which isn't just alk and cal.

 

[Bebow]

Yeah but I was using b-ionic which isn't just alk and cal.

You mean B-Ionic Elements or the B-ionic 2 part?

 

[Jaysin13]

You mean B-Ionic Elements or the B-ionic 2 part?

2 part

 

[Bebow]

But they came back right? I mean I doubt there is anyway to siphon all without just siphoning all the sand..... I have been at it for 3 weeks now trying to keep P and N at goal range and vacuuming sand through a 10 micron sock daily.... Although my P drops daily and I haven't nailed that down yet..... Seems like the population is way down but still there.

Hang in there! On mine, Once the population got down from dosing N and P with silicate I initiated my final attack. I sucked the remaining areas out sand and all into a 35 gal. Brute then pumped the water back in through a 5 micron filter sock in the sump sock holder. I did that several times over the course of a few days as I couldn’t get them all at one time. I still haven’t returned the sand, had too much sand anyway.

 

[Bebow]

2 part

That should be ok.

 

[taricha]

Two weeks ago I noticed a change in the diatom color, pulled out the scope and found Dino’s. I did add some Red Sea trace elements around the same time so maybe that’s the smoking gun along with water changes.

Interesting! Rather than your report being a strike against the proposed mechanism, it looks like more evidence pointing toward the trace element limitation as the means by which the dinos are halted.
When you say red sea trace elements, do you mean this product?

It’s a pain to read, shades of grey to blue grey. I’m sure my measurements aren’t real accurate.... Got it on Amazon for $13.

did you ever test it vs a known amount? I thought I read it comes with a reference, or you can make a reference - put 5 drops of the SpongExcel in a gallon to raise the concentration by 1ppm Si (3.3ppm SiO4 - Silicate) As long as it's reading somewhere in the ballpark, then awesome.

 

[Bebow]

Interesting! Rather than your report being a strike against the proposed mechanism, it looks like more evidence pointing toward the trace element limitation as the means by which the dinos are halted.
When you say red sea trace elements, do you mean this product?


did you ever test it vs a known amount? I thought I read it comes with a reference, or you can make a reference - put 5 drops of the SpongExcel in a gallon to raise the concentration by 1ppm Si (3.3ppm SiO4 - Silicate) As long as it's reading somewhere in the ballpark, then awesome.

That it, the 4 part kit.
Never tried the test kits reference vial. Kinda figured I was close enough, maybe with in 1 mg/l or so. Once I stopped all nitrate control it ended up around 15ppm, so for So4 I was shooting for high side natural seawater ranges at 3ppm. Was hesitant to go higher, at least intentionally. I did see a few readings of 5. I could see the sand color change from that dark brown to a golden brown as the diatoms population increased.

 

[taricha]

Ok, I'm confused. I was told initially if I'm dosing then just keep doing it. Water changes as normal. But then I keep reading people talking about trace elements. So dosing and water changes seem very counterproductive. Is the goal to deplete the trace elements dinos utilize to starve them out?? Or try to keep the system as stable and normal as close to ideal as possible and have other algae and biodiversity out compete them??

So let's consider if you have dinos and they have executed their bloom phase and are dominating, there's very little else in the tank. They've likely consumed just about everything there is to be had. So if you don't do water changes, or input some trace elements, then nothing can grow to compete with them. This is seen in tanks where they say "I've had elevated N & P for a month and no green algae growth - can't even grow Chaeto!"
So early on, dose nutrients - if green doesn't take off then do water changes - perhaps even add trace elements if you can't get algae or diatoms to grow. Grow everything, remove dinos as much as you can. Once you've raised up a strong contingent of competitors - green algae & diatoms - then it makes sense for you to force them to compete for scarce micronutrient resources. You can stop water changes, and any other micronutrient input. After you have sufficient stuff to compete with the dinos.
This is why sometimes the advice sounds contradictory.

 

[Jaysin13]

So let's consider if you have dinos and they have executed their bloom phase and are dominating, there's very little else in the tank. They've likely consumed just about everything there is to be had. So if you don't do water changes, or input some trace elements, then nothing can grow to compete with them. This is seen in tanks where they say "I've had elevated N & P for a month and no green algae growth - can't even grow Chaeto!"
So early on, dose nutrients - if green doesn't take off then do water changes - perhaps even add trace elements if you can't get algae or diatoms to grow. Grow everything, remove dinos as much as you can. Once you've raised up a strong contingent of competitors - green algae & diatoms - then it makes sense for you to force them to compete for scarce micronutrient resources. You can stop water changes, and any other micronutrient input. After you have sufficient stuff to compete with the dinos.
This is why sometimes the advice sounds contradictory.

Well said and now it makes perfect sense! I had an algae scrubber that took off once I started dosing N and P. I took it offline as I was unable to keep P at any decent level. I will continue the dosing and monitoring the N and P levels until I have some growth in the display. Continue vacuuming daily.... Then edge back to push em out. Re-employ the scrubber to stabilize levels once clear.

Thank you for clearing this up in my head!