Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[Biglew11]

so it appears that i have amphidinium dinos

Only two in view but they cover the whole sand bed. Tank is about 3.5 year's. I started with dry rock with about 12 pounds liverock from lfs. Used gfo to bring down phosphates, not sure how long they were bottomed out. They are now around .1 ppm, hanna Ulr phosphate checker. I still struggle with high nitrates. 70 ppm. Red sea pro.
should i ride them out or could i try anything to decrease my nitrates. i'd like to see them somewhere between 10 20 ppm as i'm also struggling with some cyano.

 

[ScottB]

so it appears that i have amphidinium dinos

Only two in view but they cover the whole sand bed. Tank is about 3.5 year's. I started with dry rock with about 12 pounds liverock from lfs. Used gfo to bring down phosphates, not sure how long they were bottomed out. They are now around .1 ppm, hanna Ulr phosphate checker. I still struggle with high nitrates. 70 ppm. Red sea pro.
should i ride them out or could i try anything to decrease my nitrates. i'd like to see them somewhere between 10 20 ppm as i'm also struggling with some cyano.

Agree your ID. Sorry. These guys have pretty strong defenses.I've yet to see a consensus emerge around highly effective treatments, honestly. Removing sand has been an effective last resort for some, but that can create biome stability issues if done too quickly.

As to nitrates, well in the absence of dinos I would suggest a few very large WCs. I am an ostreopsis expert, but not an amphid expert, but for ostreopsis they would LOVE for you to do some big WCs. Amphids, not so sure.

Anybody got experience with WCs and amphidinium?

 

[TurboTang]

Agree your ID. Sorry. These guys have pretty strong defenses.I've yet to see a consensus emerge around highly effective treatments, honestly. Removing sand has been an effective last resort for some, but that can create biome stability issues if done too quickly.

As to nitrates, well in the absence of dinos I would suggest a few very large WCs. I am an ostreopsis expert, but not an amphid expert, but for ostreopsis they would LOVE for you to do some big WCs. Amphids, not so sure.

Anybody got experience with WCs and amphidinium?

I have had mixed results with water changes. I tried siphoning the sand - only removing water and junk from sand. The dino population definitely was increasing each time I did this. I then started just sucking off the dino scum off the top of sand with hose during the wc. I would rinse this sand repeatedly and replace it At next wc. The Dino's are taking much longer to repopulate now. I'm also doing silicates, phyto, and added a large pop of copepods. Keeping po4 0.12 - 0.16. Po3 5-10

 

[dwest]

Agree your ID. Sorry. These guys have pretty strong defenses.I've yet to see a consensus emerge around highly effective treatments, honestly. Removing sand has been an effective last resort for some, but that can create biome stability issues if done too quickly.

As to nitrates, well in the absence of dinos I would suggest a few very large WCs. I am an ostreopsis expert, but not an amphid expert, but for ostreopsis they would LOVE for you to do some big WCs. Amphids, not so sure.

Anybody got experience with WCs and amphidinium?

Water changes did not seem to increase my small cell amphidinium. In fact the corals, the ones that didn’t die, seemed to enjoy the lowering of toxins that water changes caused. I will attest that when I removed sand, was the turning point of my battle. I removed some every week during water changes over the course of a couple of months. In fact there is some sand I couldn’t reach easily and is still there. Quick FTS, toes included, to show that these can be beat. Good luck.

 

[TurboTang]

Water changes did not seem to increase my small cell amphidinium. In fact the corals, the ones that didn’t die, seemed to enjoy the lowering of toxins that water changes caused. I will attest that when I removed sand, was the turning point of my battle. I removed some every week during water changes over the course of a couple of months. In fact there is some sand I couldn’t reach easily and is still there. Quick FTS, toes included, to show that these can be beat. Good luck.

How long have you kept it bare bottom? Do you plan to add sand again?

 

[dwest]

How long have you kept it bare bottom? Do you plan to add sand again?

I’ve been bb for a little over a year. I want to add sand back but I hate animals deaths from dino toxins. So I plan to stay bb for the foreseeable future.

 

[alilogan1983]

Hi All any chance with help of an ID on these please, I've been previously told I have Prorocentrum & Maybe Large Cell Amphidinium?? I've been doing the below process now for about 20 days and recently just finished a 3 day black out.

Seeing diatoms generally only on the glass and and UV pipework but not really on the sand bed... Took a sample off the sand bed and it still seems to have dinos in it

Tank is a reefer 250

Daily Items

• 7am turn UV off – UV pump left running (UV in main display around 100l per hour 20w unit)
• 7-8am dose 5ml of phytoplankton - 1ml per 50 litres so say 5ml per day in the morning after UV turned off –
• 10:30am Dose silicates daily started off @ 3ml per day and increased dosage by 3ml per day max dose 30ml
• 11am Lights on
• 5pm feed fish one cube of frozen brine shrimp and pellets
• 6pm Lights off
• 6pm dose h202 directly into tank – … 2ml of 3% h202 per 20 litres of water so 6ml per day
• 11:59pm Turn UV on – plugged into smart socket set on schedule

None Daily Items

• Due to dinos being med / high toxic change carbon monthly.
• Use 5 micron filter sock and sand syphon and clean entire sand bed every other day running back through sump
• Dose nitrate and phosphate to ensure levels are maintained
  • phosphate current level 0.18 (hanna checker)
  • Nitrate current level 12 (nyos test kit)
• Input copepods weekly x3 100ml bags per week – after lights have been off for an hour, use coral feeder to make sure they get into rockwork / sand
• Dose beneficial bacterial once a week current dosing x3 drops of aqua forest Bio S

Any thing else I can look at doing?

 

[dwest]

I think you are doing lots of good things. If it were my tank I would keep UV running 24/7 and not dose phyto nor copepods. I also have no experience with hydrogen peroxide but I know there are positive reports out there. Looks like you have some diatoms which is good. If there are any snails , fish, or coral problems I would replace GAC weekly for a while as well.

I think I see prorocentrum in your slides

Dinoflagellate Identification Guide

I've had this laying around for a while. Had some recent interest, so I tweaked it a bit and am posting it. Not really about cures just ID pictures, videos, and a few short facts. Hope it can be helpful.

www.reef2reef.com

 

[alilogan1983]

I think you are doing lots of good things. If it were my tank I would keep UV running 24/7 and not dose phyto nor copepods. I also have no experience with hydrogen peroxide but I know there are positive reports out there. Looks like you have some diatoms which is good. If there are any snails , fish, or coral problems I would replace GAC weekly for a while as well.

I think I see prorocentrum in your slides

Dinoflagellate Identification Guide

I've had this laying around for a while. Had some recent interest, so I tweaked it a bit and am posting it. Not really about cures just ID pictures, videos, and a few short facts. Hope it can be helpful.

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks for the above dwest... I think its Prorocentrum too someone else has said there may be large cell in there too... which would be bad as they bugger off into the sand at night... Only dosing copepods and phytoplankton to try and booster my microbiology....

 

[RMS18]

Hey guys,

Wanted to post another update about my journey with Amphidinium Dinos and what finally worked for me after almost a year.

So it's been a bit over 8 weeks and the tank is still looking good! I had some cyano come in a couple of weeks after I changed my plan of attack to do nothing but maintain stability everywhere possible. I let the cyano do it's thing, and it's slowly going away. However over the course of 3 days it went away completely, pure white sand. I was a bit concerned, and my skepticism was right. Dinos came back in the sand on a few spots. I maintained my weekly maintenance, and before I knew it the brown was gone and replaced with more cyano. The cyano increased to the point it made mats out of the sand. Everyday it has become thinner and thinner. Again I'm letting it do it's thing. The water has cleared up of mirco bubbles and man are the corals happy. Acros and milli's has really taking off from the little sticks they are. Colors are showing back up and I even added a few more sticks.

One question I had was how long would you recommend I wait before trying aminos? 6 months of being dino clear?

Thanks!

 

[ScottB]

Hey guys,

Wanted to post another update about my journey with Amphidinium Dinos and what finally worked for me after almost a year.

So it's been a bit over 8 weeks and the tank is still looking good! I had some cyano come in a couple of weeks after I changed my plan of attack to do nothing but maintain stability everywhere possible. I let the cyano do it's thing, and it's slowly going away. However over the course of 3 days it went away completely, pure white sand. I was a bit concerned, and my skepticism was right. Dinos came back in the sand on a few spots. I maintained my weekly maintenance, and before I knew it the brown was gone and replaced with more cyano. The cyano increased to the point it made mats out of the sand. Everyday it has become thinner and thinner. Again I'm letting it do it's thing. The water has cleared up of mirco bubbles and man are the corals happy. Acros and milli's has really taking off from the little sticks they are. Colors are showing back up and I even added a few more sticks.

One question I had was how long would you recommend I wait before trying aminos? 6 months of being dino clear?

Thanks!

Good to hear of your continued progress. Your SPS look pretty happy.

As to when to go back to dosing aminos, good question. I am testing that myself again now. I did try earlier and had a minor relapse -- even with steady nutrient. Just taking the bottle out of the fridge seemed to trigger them But mine were ostreopsis, so...

I am now about 5 months clear, and very lightly dosing every few days for the past couple weeks and seem to be OK. But it is only about 20ml against 300 gallons so pretty immaterial.

 

[RMS18]

Good to hear of your continued progress. Your SPS look pretty happy.

As to when to go back to dosing aminos, good question. I am testing that myself again now. I did try earlier and had a minor relapse -- even with steady nutrient. Just taking the bottle out of the fridge seemed to trigger them But mine were ostreopsis, so...

I am now about 5 months clear, and very lightly dosing every few days for the past couple weeks and seem to be OK. But it is only about 20ml against 300 gallons so pretty immaterial.

Good info. I decided to give it a try and monitor closely dosing 1ml per 50gal per Brightwell direction. As far as how often to dose I'm not sure directions are vague. I figured I'd try one dose a week and go from there. So in reality I'm adding 2.5ml into 120g once per week.

 

[ScottB]

Good info. I decided to give it a try and monitor closely dosing 1ml per 50gal per Brightwell direction. As far as how often to dose I'm not sure directions are vague. I figured I'd try one dose a week and go from there. So in reality I'm adding 2.5ml into 120g once per week.

My guess is going slow will be OK as long as dinos are otherwise subdued and nutrients/competitors are present. Report back.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Okay, I've been reading some studies that are stating that certain macro algaes can inhibit Dino's, to put it in layman's terms. Chemical warfare?

Has anyone tried this and what do we know from it?

@ScottB, @taricha

 

[TurboTang]

Okay, I've been reading some studies that are starting that certain macro algaes can inhibit Dino's, to put it in layman's terms. Chemical warfare?

Has anyone tried this and what do we know from it?

@ScottB, @taricha

My large cell amphidinium outbreak occurred in my DT and quarantine tank at same time. I removed a lot of my chaeto due to GHA/cyano growth and just put in QT tank. It didn't happen fast, but the Dino's receded and finally disappeared. Half the tank is pristine white sand and the other half is covered with scattered chaeto and green film algae. I've added chaeto to DT also, but between the pump flow and hungry tangs, it gets scattered quickly. I'm considering holding down with some sort of netting. Keeping nutrients elevated, raising silicates in DT is not doing much for me so far.

 

[Flippers4pups]

My large cell amphidinium outbreak occurred in my DT and quarantine tank at same time. I removed a lot of my chaeto due to GHA/cyano growth and just put in QT tank. It didn't happen fast, but the Dino's receded and finally disappeared. Half the tank is pristine white sand and the other half is covered with scattered chaeto and green film algae. I've added chaeto to DT also, but between the pump flow and hungry tangs, it gets scattered quickly. I'm considering holding down with some sort of netting. Keeping nutrients elevated, raising silicates in DT is not doing much for me so far.

Don't know about chaetomorpa having any effect, but some studies are showing promise in use of Ulva species in combating certain dinoflagellate blooms.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09670260400019741

 

[ScottB]

Okay, I've been reading some studies that are starting that certain macro algaes can inhibit Dino's, to put it in layman's terms. Chemical warfare?

Has anyone tried this and what do we know from it?

@ScottB, @taricha

I'll start surfing for some of those studies on academia.edu my favorite hosting site.

Anecdotally -- for large cell amphidinium anyway -- @taricha a has proposed this several times to some positive effect. It is difficult to implement at scale. Honestly, I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of chemical warfare as I always thought of macros as peaceful. I/we speculated that the macro acted as a host to dino eating pods. Most dinos are toxic, but amphidinium seem to have little/no toxicity. Their primary defense is hugging and burying in the sand. I recall video of some kind of pods eating dinos too. Again, anecdotal.

Thanks for the reminder about macros as a tool against amphidinium; this pest breeds a lot of despair in the hobby. More despair than it probably warrants IMO, as it does not kill corals or inverts like other species can.

 

[Flippers4pups]

I'll start surfing for some of those studies on academia.edu my favorite hosting site.

Anecdotally -- for large cell amphidinium anyway -- @taricha a has proposed this several times to some positive effect. It is difficult to implement at scale. Honestly, I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of chemical warfare as I always thought of macros as peaceful. I/we speculated that the macro acted as a host to dino eating pods. Most dinos are toxic, but amphidinium seem to have little/no toxicity. Their primary defense is hugging and burying in the sand. I recall video of some kind of pods eating dinos too. Again, anecdotal.

Thanks for the reminder about macros as a tool against amphidinium; this pest breeds a lot of despair in the hobby. More despair than it probably warrants IMO, as it does not kill corals or inverts like other species can.

It would be helpful, I think, to have hobbyist that keep macroalgae tanks chime in if they have had dinoflagellate issues in their systems. Not chaetomorpa, but other macro's.

 

[Meatball_reef]

So I just wanted to add my bit to this thread. I read all 62 pages months ago, and have been battling a bad amph dino outbreak for the last several months. I was out of town in February often, and some of March, and had a fish die and could never find it. Life got in the way most of March, and the tank got neglected.

By the time I got around to it all of my sand was brown, and it was climbing up a lot of the rocks, over frags, the back wall of the tank, everything. First I thought it was cyano, dosed chemiclean. Obviously no luck. Tried 3 day blackout, which stalled their growth, but they were still there. UV obviously did nothing as well. 83 degrees F for 4 days, no effect other than active hungry fish. Ordered Dr. Tim's waste away, which did not help by itself either. So, I went the silica dosing route. Ordered some Spongexcel and started low, 5 drops per day (this is a 40b with 20g sump, live rock and equipment in sump I estimate 40g net water vol). Gradually moved it up to 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 drops a day (sometimes more). I started to keep a log of my dosings, as I didn't want to dose all at once, and would start forgetting how much I had put in throughout the day. I also kept up with the Waste Away, and recently added Vibrant to the regime. Both 1X per week staggered, so Waste Away Friday and Vibrant Wed.

I stopped blowing off the dinos from the rocks and sand, which I think helped quite a bit. Blowing them into the water column I think just gave them the momentum to float around and land on new real estate to colonize. So I think leaving them be was the way to go all along, or at least siphon them out instead of just moving them around. I just let them sit on the sand bed, and finally last week did a water change in order to siphon off all the dinos I could see off the sand bed and rocks. So far so good. They are still there, but its been almost a week, and before the silica dosing regiment they would have returned full force within less than a day. I never had a explosion of diatoms, or other algae really (maybe waste away and vibrant prevented this, who knows). I plan on keeping the dosing going for the foreseeable future probably. We'll see. I never checked Si concentration, too cheap to buy a Hanna test kit after reading other's posts that mentioned overdosing with no negative effects. The salifert test seems next to useless.

I guess my takeaway from all this is Si dosing worked, for me at least, it just took a long while. This has been the most frustrating thing I've dealt with in this hobby, which I've been in off and on for 15 years. Who knows, maybe the Si did nothing, and it was just leaving them alone that did it. Or maybe the waste away or vibrant. I did never try H2O2, that would have been my next move if they came back hard after I siphoned them out last week.

I hope this helps someone out there fighting this menace, this forum has been very helpful to me over the years and I'd like to hopefully pay a small part of that back.

 

[taricha]

and recently added Vibrant to the regime

I'm glad you had success, and thanks so much for your observations. For others following along I would say that it seems vibrant is very strong at killing diatoms. So if dosing silica to encourage diatom competition, then vibrant would not be a helpful combination probably for most people.