Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[ScottB]

I agree that nutrient imbalance is of paramount importance. But then the key ssue is, what is the balance point? A NO3/PO4 ratio of 50, 100, 150? Would be great to know that.

In my case I would say that bad things (Amphidinium and then cyano) began to happen when that ratio was over 200 (NO3, 10-15; PO4, 0,05). Now I got that ratio around 80 (NO3, 8 and PO4, 0,1) and I'm seeing some improvement with both cyano and Amphidinium (for sure with cyano).

However the right ratio may depend a lot on the bacterial communities thriving in each tank. How could you get some information on this? The aquarium brands that sell bacterial formulates do not specify the bacterial species in those formulates. I think that, in terms of natural biodiversity, a better option would be the periodic addition of new live rock and/or sand.

Agree on both points.

The interactions in each system are so complex that the correct balance could be very different across systems. I seem to do OK around 100X to 150X but tend to keep my PO4 => .1. In my experience, it is less about the ratio itself, but CHANGES to the ratio that cyano likes. Then, if either value goes low enough to zero the dinos take over from there.

Live, natural microfauna and bacteria are the best prevention. Not an overnight fix for anything; stop looking for those.

 

[lost66]

This thread has 76 pages. Please forgive me, don't have time to read all of it I believe I have that kind of dino and I think I will add phyto (won't harm if won't help) and I would like to try silica method. Do we have a tutorial how to do it? Like in a single document steps by steps?

 

[thedon986]

This thread has 76 pages. Please forgive me, don't have time to read all of it I believe I have that kind of dino and I think I will add phyto (won't harm if won't help) and I would like to try silica method. Do we have a tutorial how to do it? Like in a single document steps by steps?

For silica I would buy spongexcel and start with a drop per gallon for a few days and see how your system reacts. You can up it until you see a diatom bloom or lots of diatoms on the microscope then hold it there and see how the Dino reacts. Most importantly make sure that dosing phyto and silica at the same time don’t bottom out your nitrate and phosphate. Phosphate seems to deplete faster than nitrate with these Dino in my experience.

 

[lost66]

For silica I would buy spongexcel and start with a drop per gallon for a few days and see how your system reacts. You can up it until you see a diatom bloom or lots of diatoms on the microscope then hold it there and see how the Dino reacts. Most importantly make sure that dosing phyto and silica at the same time don’t bottom out your nitrate and phosphate. Phosphate seems to deplete faster than nitrate with these Dino in my experience.

No testing for silica at all? Just add drop per gallon and wait? I sent my water for ICP test some time ago so I know more or less where I am at today.

 

[taricha]

No testing for silica at all? Just add drop per gallon and wait? I sent my water for ICP test some time ago so I know more or less where I am at today.

Hanna low range Si meter, or hach Si kit.
Other hobby Si kits give false zero. If you are just adding a small amount, you can get by for a while without a test kit. I assume your ICP said Si was low or zero.

 

[CookieRdReef]

I have been battling small cell amph for a while now. I have 2 large rocks that look worse than anything else that I am thinking about dipping in H2O2 mix with sw for a few minutes. Then sw dip before placing back into the tank. Any downside to this?

 

[taricha]

I have been battling small cell amph for a while now. I have 2 large rocks that look worse than anything else that I am thinking about dipping in H2O2 mix with sw for a few minutes. Then sw dip before placing back into the tank. Any downside to this?

No real drawback I suppose. But the blank slate will probably be re colonized by the fastest responders in the tank to the new space. That will likely be the Dinos.
That doesn't mean the h202 didn't work. It just means that Dinos love to claim new territory.

 

[Reefer Dan]

If they weren't moving they must've died. Perhaps that is how they made it to the overflow.

If the LFS has sump rock, you get most of the advantages and least of the potential hitchhiker stuff. This should come from either a dedicated system or a reef system. Not a FOWLR as they may have run copper at some point. If it is display rock, inspect the whole aquascape for mojanos and aiptasia. In terms of diversity, the older the system the better pretty much.

I've not dealt with IPSF but they have a solid reputation.

None of this is overnight fix stuff for dinos, just a long term competitive booster shot.

@ScottB: I ended up getting a ~1# Tongan branch LR and ~2# dense (not porous) Hawaiian rock from a trusted well established tank and added to mine (I have a 28g, so it was approximately a +10% LR increase).

I have live sad activator/mud, amiphods, etc coming from IPSF on Wednesday. Any suggestions on how to add this? Do I vacuum my sand bed before adding, mix in, or pour over?

Not sure how much of this is all a waste or not, but trying to do a “buckshot” for biodiversity.

Continuing to dose spongexcel (24-30 drops/day) and MB7 (3 ml/day) and change filter floss every 3 days.

Been seeing intermittent progress with the dinos, made some headway at 24 drops/day with spongexcel and started to back it off to 18 drops and lost some progress, so bumped it back up. Been debating on resuming water changes... nothing has been looking bad, but if the point is to have other things multiply, may need to supply the space/micronutrients for them to try and establish. Thoughts?
@badams.one - have you noticed any negative effects with starting water changes again?

 

[ScottB]

@ScottB: I ended up getting a ~1# Tongan branch LR and ~2# dense (not porous) Hawaiian rock from a trusted well established tank and added to mine (I have a 28g, so it was approximately a +10% LR increase).

I have live sad activator/mud, amiphods, etc coming from IPSF on Wednesday. Any suggestions on how to add this? Do I vacuum my sand bed before adding, mix in, or pour over?

Not sure how much of this is all a waste or not, but trying to do a “buckshot” for biodiversity.

Continuing to dose spongexcel (24-30 drops/day) and MB7 (3 ml/day) and change filter floss every 3 days.

Been seeing intermittent progress with the dinos, made some headway at 24 drops/day with spongexcel and started to back it off to 18 drops and lost some progress, so bumped it back up. Been debating on resuming water changes... nothing has been looking bad, but if the point is to have other things multiply, may need to supply the space/micronutrients for them to try and establish. Thoughts?
@badams.one - have you noticed any negative effects with starting water changes again?

I am all in on adding the bacterial and microbial diversity. Funny you mention IPSF.com as I was on their site today and was wondering the same about the mud/sand introduction process. I guess I would repeat what I have done before, using a tupperware container in my sump. Mud on the bottom, sand rubble on top.

As to WCs I am unsure in relation to amphidinium. I can assure you the case against WCs when it comes to ostreopsis, but don't think the same conviction holds for amphids.

Lets see what @badams.one experiences, or what others say. There is a building consensus about NOT trying the filter the sand bed, just FYI.

 

[chema]

Hi all: a little update in my tank Amphidinium + cyano battlefront.

As shown by the photos, I have got a considerable progress in the last days. The front area in the first photo was completely covered by Amphidinium and cyano ten days ago. Now it is almost free of both. However, as it can be seen in the other photos, some areas still have patches of a combination of Amphidinium and cyano.

The procedure I have followed is:
1. Addition of 200 ml of a concentrated self made culture of Synechococcus in alternate days
2. Addition of 30 ml of commercial bacterial formulates in alternate days. This addition was alternated with the addition of Synechococcus. The bacterial formulates I'm using are Fritzyme 7, Fritzyme 460, Special Blend and Seachem Remediation (most of the improvement detected has taken place after the begining of the addition of the last one).
3. Addition of 30 drops (approximately 1,5 ml) of a sodium silicate concentrated solution (1.365 g/ml neutral solution, technical grade) each three days (no diatom bloom detected).
3. No water changes for the last three months. However one week ago I changed 15% of the tank water, apparently with no negative results.
4. No sand syphoning.
5. No adition of traces (usually I add a few drops daily of Fe, Co, Cr and I solutions).

I have suffered the Amphidinium plague since last December, with a severe outbreak of cyano in January that forced a three days blackout. Afterwards, both plagues were gone, but Amphidinium returned in a matter of days. Then, progressively, the Amphidinium layer was covered by a thick matt of cyano that ended up covering almost all the sand in the bottom of the tank.
I don't have conclusive data, but my observations indicate that things have got much better after addition of the sodium silicate solution and Seachem Remediation.

 

[attiland]

I apologize if this has been covered before.

Is silicate dosing effective against all dino or just the Amphidinium strain?

It is for Amphi only

 

[attiland]

I am all in on adding the bacterial and microbial diversity. Funny you mention IPSF.com as I was on their site today and was wondering the same about the mud/sand introduction process. I guess I would repeat what I have done before, using a tupperware container in my sump. Mud on the bottom, sand rubble on top.

As to WCs I am unsure in relation to amphidinium. I can assure you the case against WCs when it comes to ostreopsis, but don't think the same conviction holds for amphids.

Lets see what @badams.one experiences, or what others say. There is a building consensus about NOT trying the filter the sand bed, just FYI.

My experience was the same. WC or no WC made no difference. Adding silicates made a big dent in populations but the whole process was still ~6 months together with adding diversity using mud + live rocks + chaeto + pods+ various bacteria products like Fauna Marine ReBiotic

 

[Tarlon]

Heeelp! Is this Amphidinium Dinoflagellate? Microscope video - please confirm

 

[Tarlon]

A pic

 

[ScottB]

A pic

Yes, I am afraid so.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Heeelp! Is this Amphidinium Dinoflagellate? Microscope video - please confirm

yes
Here is full program:
Prepare by starting with a water change and blow this stuff loose with a turkey baster and siphon up loose particles.
Turn lights off (at least white and run blue at 10-15%) for 5 days and at night dose 1ml of hydrogen peroxide per 10 gallons for all 5 nights. If you dont have light dependent coral- turn all lights off.
During the day dose 1ml of liquid bacteria (such as bacter 7) per 10 gallons.
Clean filters daily and DO NOT FEED CORAL FOODS OR ADD NOPOX as it is food for dinos.
Day 5,, you can start with blue lights - ramping up and work your white lights up slowly

 

[lost66]

drop per gallon for a

Are you sure about that dose? The bottle says 1 drop per 20 gallons. I can imagine recommended dose is a a regular amount to support sponges and other stuff and 1 drop per 1 gallon is to introduce diatom. Just wanted to be sure. I just poured 15ml of this stuff to my 240g tank

 

[CookieRdReef]

Are you sure about that dose? The bottle says 1 drop per 20 gallons. I can imagine recommended dose is a a regular amount to support sponges and other stuff and 1 drop per 1 gallon is to introduce diatom. Just wanted to be sure. I just poured 15ml of this stuff to my 240g tank

Yes. I've been adding 75 drops per day to my 75g. No diatom explosion after 2-3 weeks. Bottle is almost empty.

 

[attiland]

Yes. I've been adding 75 drops per day to my 75g. No diatom explosion after 2-3 weeks. Bottle is almost empty.

Some people didn’t seen a bloom. I personally calculated 2ppm for my water volume and damped it in day one than I have added 20 drops as a top up after waiting 3 days daily. Within 5 days Diatoms were everywhere. Nitrates dropped significantly too so watch out for them. Don’t be scared this stuff dies back off really quick.

 

[ScottB]

Yes. I've been adding 75 drops per day to my 75g. No diatom explosion after 2-3 weeks. Bottle is almost empty.

Check for diatoms under the microscope. Like little pencil sticks with pointy ends usually.