Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[Mickey]

THEY'RE BACK!! And I can't believe I did this to myself!!!

Back in 2019 I was battling dinos for a long time and finally got rid of them. Well they are now back and totally overrunning my reef. I think I did this myself through a couple of stupid moves.

Looking through the scope they still look like LCA's. I've attached two videos below hoping someone will confirm for me. When I look at various samples most of them are not moving. I'd guess less than 10-25% are moving around. Sand is covered, and rocks are covered with this slimy, stringy mess that is loaded with bubbles by and of lighting period. Starting to cover bases of some corals. I see a very few cells that look like other kinds of dinos, but very few.

I know my nutrients are out of balance with Nitrates at 5 and Phosphate at 2 (yes, I mean 2 and not .2). For years nitrates were around 20 and phosphates high with no problems, then in last few months nitrates down to 5 but no change to phosphates. I am trying to bring phosphate down some and feeding more.

I'm currently reading (or rereading) some old threads on dinos, particularly the old one Twilliard started that starts out talking about metronidazole then moves into other things but I'm only a third of the way through. Not sure what the latest thoughts are on getting rid of this stuff.

Tank is a 225 with maybe 240 gallons TWV including sump. I brought the temp up to 81-82 and pH swings from 8.1-8.4. Stopped water changes. I'm starting to do manual removal but it's a challenge in a big tank.

Hoping someone can give me some workable ideas.
@taricha @jason2459 @ScottB

 

[ScottB]

THEY'RE BACK!! And I can't believe I did this to myself!!!

Back in 2019 I was battling dinos for a long time and finally got rid of them. Well they are now back and totally overrunning my reef. I think I did this myself through a couple of stupid moves.

Looking through the scope they still look like LCA's. I've attached two videos below hoping someone will confirm for me. When I look at various samples most of them are not moving. I'd guess less than 10-25% are moving around. Sand is covered, and rocks are covered with this slimy, stringy mess that is loaded with bubbles by and of lighting period. Starting to cover bases of some corals. I see a very few cells that look like other kinds of dinos, but very few.

I know my nutrients are out of balance with Nitrates at 5 and Phosphate at 2 (yes, I mean 2 and not .2). For years nitrates were around 20 and phosphates high with no problems, then in last few months nitrates down to 5 but no change to phosphates. I am trying to bring phosphate down some and feeding more.

I'm currently reading (or rereading) some old threads on dinos, particularly the old one Twilliard started that starts out talking about metronidazole then moves into other things but I'm only a third of the way through. Not sure what the latest thoughts are on getting rid of this stuff.

Tank is a 225 with maybe 240 gallons TWV including sump. I brought the temp up to 81-82 and pH swings from 8.1-8.4. Stopped water changes. I'm starting to do manual removal but it's a challenge in a big tank.

Hoping someone can give me some workable ideas.
@taricha @jason2459 @ScottB

Oh you chose the tough ones; pretty sure I see LCA. The circle in the middle had me thinking prorocentrum but the beak and the swim pattern look LCA.

My best thoughts on treatment are here, but resolving this species is a slow tough slog for most.

A Dinoflagellate Treatment Guide

As the title suggests, this is intended as a short guide on what to do when you suspect dinoflagellates are trying to overtake your system. It is an attempt to boil down the protocols discussed across 11,000 posts in this "Are you Tired" thread along with thousands of other dino threads. I did...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Mickey]

Thanks, Scott. I have read that guide, quite a few times actually. I'm trying to work out my next course of action which is why I reached out here in case anyone else has any great ideas.

Since these aren't known to be easy to get into the water column I hesitate to go the UV route because a properly sized UV for 240 gallons gets pretty pricey so holding that as a very last resort.

Read in several places that low nitrates had caused a dino explosion which I found interesting because that sort of tracks with my experience. Nitrates had been running 20-50 for years and only in the last few months did they drop which corresponds to this dino outbreak. But I think several other things contributed as well. I may try raising nitrates as part of my attack plan.

 

[CookieRdReef]

These are before and after shots from my 75g late 2020. I had amph dinos. I didn't really make a dent in them until I threw the kitchen sink at them (did lots of things people said worked for amph all at once). Trying one thing at a time did not work. I would start by raising nitrates and lower phosphates. Coral farmers use really high ratios like 100:1 or more so your ratio is not condusive to coral growth but good for dinos. I did the following:

Raised temp to 84
Dosed silicates to promote diatoms
Added biodiversity to outcompete: Lots and lots of pods, PNS Pro Bio
Removed some old sand and added Ocean Direct Live Sand
A lot of manual removal
Blackout for I think 5 days when things started to turn my way.

It sucked and I almost quit but I beat super bad amps as a newbie <1 year in reefer. Good luck.

 

[Mickey]

Thanks. My reef has been up for over 18 years and this is my second bout with LCA in 3-4 years. I plan on doing a multi approach similar to yours.

 

[Mickey]

Anyone know if a diatom filter will remove bacteria from the water? Asking because I'm going to use one to help remove the crud when I blow off the rocks, etc. but I also plan on adding bacteria (either Dr. Tim's or Microbacter 7). I'd hate to add all that good bacteria then just filter it back out again.

 

[Biglew11]

I'm pretty sure a diatom filter is fine enough to remove some bacteria from the water.

You could blow the rocks and stuff off and filter the water, then add the bacteria afterwards.

 

[Mickey]

Yeah, I'm blowing things off now and filtering (just without the diatomaceous powder). Based on what I see, I could blow off every day for quite a while and still be filtering out stuff. I just want to start adding the bacteria soon to help clear things out.

Maybe I'll blow off for a couple more days, then add bacteria every day for a week or so, then go back to blowing off. Just alternating.

Grr. I hate these dinos!

 

[KonradTO]

Yep. Ostreopsis are known to be photosensitive, and need to take measures to protect themselves from maximum light exposure. In some areas they actually decrease during the peak of Summer and pick back up in early fall. researchers think it's because they can't handle that much light. But I've never heard of that with amphidinium.
I'd like that explanation better if you had said you ran metal halides. Hmmm.

I am only halfway of reading this thread so some answers might be present later on, but I observed the same in my tank. Where lights are too strong Amphidinium cannot grow.
What if I moved all frags on one side of the tank and blast the other side with max PAR possible?

 

[taricha]

I am only halfway of reading this thread so some answers might be present later on, but I observed the same in my tank. Where lights are too strong Amphidinium cannot grow.
What if I moved all frags on one side of the tank and blast the other side with max PAR possible?

Dinos, diatoms, cyano are all mobile cells and they optimize their location to fit their needs. My guess is that if you blasted a section with intense light, amphidinium would move down a fraction of an inch into the sand since that's what they do at night anyway.
but I could be wrong and maybe they'd leave the section entirely.

 

[KonradTO]

Ok, this was some good reading.
It looks that the trends for battling this organism changed along the years and no absolute solution was found overall. Which is a bummer. Since I have this growing now very viciously in my sand.

After this long thread I decided to opt for a mixed strategy:
-I started by siphoning the affected sand out of the tank and returning the water in the sump with a 10ug sock.
-nutrients were ok (2ppm nitrates, 0.04 phosphates) but since I have a big fuge full of macros, and I am not seeing much coral growth, I am aiming for 10ppm NO3 and 0.1 ppm PO4. Apparently this could somehow help also with fighting GHA, which is a constant presence in my tank. I actually prefer Amphidinium rather thank GHA since it looks like it is not affecting my microfauna, but I NEED to see something other then algae grow in my tank otherwise I cannot tell whether there is something clearly wrong.
- I am increasing temperatures to 82-83F slowly, this could also help with coral growth somehow.
-I am keeping the UV light constantly on in case Ostreopsis is hiding in the Amphidinium crowd.
-if the above does not work in a month from now I will start dosing silicate.

Which is stupid because I just added recently a DI stage to my RO system to get rid of silicates--> I had 400ug/l in my ATO water (tested with ICP) and never seen trace of diatoms.
My only theory about this is that something was preventing their growth. I kept tank at 40ppt salinity for a while due to a faulty refractometer, and also I might have had GHA outcompeting them.
Mistery.

 

[GarrettT]

Avoid siphoning the sand. It’s only going to make it worse and cause more instability. I wouldn’t fiddle with the temperature either. Silicate dosing is the only proven method imo. Raising nutrients will help in the long run, so I would keep doing that while dosing silicate. Once the diatoms start to dominate (using your microscope), then I’d start siphoning the sand, or get cerith snails.
What are you measuring your phosphate with? If it’s not Hanna’s URL, then you could be closer to 0ppm as there will be a margin of error.

 

[GarrettT]

Siphoning will rid the dinos for a few days, but it will come back in full force. I went the extra mile and did a full sand clean once a week for a month. Basically removed all the sand from the tank, put in a stock tank with salt water, cleaned and remove the dinos, then put it back in the display.

 

[KonradTO]

Siphoning will rid the dinos for a few days, but it will come back in full force. I went the extra mile and did a full sand clean once a week for a month. Basically removed all the sand from the tank, put in a stock tank with salt water, cleaned and remove the dinos, then put it back in the display.

Avoid siphoning the sand. It’s only going to make it worse and cause more instability. I wouldn’t fiddle with the temperature either. Silicate dosing is the only proven method imo. Raising nutrients will help in the long run, so I would keep doing that while dosing silicate. Once the diatoms start to dominate (using your microscope), then I’d start siphoning the sand, or get cerith snails.
What are you measuring your phosphate with? If it’s not Hanna’s URL, then you could be closer to 0ppm as there will be a margin of error.

I use the hanna checker, but unfortunately since recently it is forbidden to ship the reagents for the URL in Germany due to the high toxicity of the reagent. Therefore I am waiting to find a pharmacy that is willing to order that for me. So I cannot test for a while. I suppose that if nitrates are a bit higher also phosphates should follow. Risky game but that's it.
Also regarding siphoning the sand, I do not mind to do it for a while as a palliative, it should also increase a bit the nutrients because of the substrate perturbation so no big deal. I will also get a conch soon as a helper. I am actually quite relieved that is not too toxic. If it wasn't for my CUC being less active I would actually keep the sand brown rather than having GHA. Maybe they get used to it

 

[KonradTO]

Hi all. Short update after the last posts: I started dosing silicates 10 days ago. I am dosing around 1-2ppm/ day using waterglass. Since I started to see some Ostreopsis as well, last week I performed a 3-days blackout. Now the tank has been going with lights for 3 days and I have not seen Dinos growing on sand yet, or at least not in such an evident way.
I will keep dosing silicates and check with a microscope what is the situation on the sand, maybe next week. Hopefully the sand remains clean.
Also, nutrient spiked a bit during the blackout, with nitrates at 25ppm. I probably will leave them drop slowly and try to keep them around 10-15ppm.
I will report back in a week.

 

[Polyp Punk]

Having the same dam LCA issue in my tank. Just started dosing sponge excel tonight. I’m praying this will work. I tried every approach in the book. This is my last resort!

 

[KonradTO]

Having the same dam LCA issue in my tank. Just started dosing sponge excel tonight. I’m praying this will work. I tried every approach in the book. This is my last resort!

It's gonna work don't worry. Don't do water changes for a while, feed more and dose silicate everyday.
It's hard to tell from the pics but:
This is the tank before silicate dosing

This is my tank now, one week after blackout

No dinos appearing (yet) and hopefully they won't show up again.
This is all thanks to @taricha

 

[Semper.Reefing]

Hello all. Been dealing with a bad case of Dino’s in my 3 month old waterbox 20. It’s been about a month now. I think I’m finally starting to get a hold of them though. I first raised my PO4 which is now at .26, dosed NO3 so I’m at 5ppm now. I’ve been consistent with scrubbing them off the rocks with a toothbrush and vacuuming the sand bed into a filter sock. I’ve been dosing MB7 as directed daily as well as DinoX and Phyto. When I first started my battle, I dosed Loudwolf Waterglass (silicate). My lighting schedule has also been reduced to only 7 hours. It looks like the diatoms are starting to outnumber the Dino’s. I took these samples only yesterday as I didn’t have a microscope when I started. I was surprised that I didn’t see a swarm of Dino’s. These samples were taken off the glass and out of a dirty patch in the sand. Just wanted to share what worked for me. Good luck!

 

[clhardy5]

I currently have LCA.....I'm going to try to just let the tank do it's thing and see what happens - although I have added live sand from Aquabiomics to increase biodiversity - and I do dose Phyto. Since LCA isn't toxic, and mainly stays on the sand and looks yucky....I'm wondering if I just stay the course.....will it eventually be outcompeted?? Has anyone just let the tank try to balance out itself? I'm not even sure how they took over. My nutrients never dropped....I did notice that I had a bloom pretty soon after I dosed Chaeto Gro - I'm wondering if that is what gave them a foot hold. Anyway.....I'm not going to do anything else drastic....just keep parameters in check - and keep dosing phyto/pods. I know this may take awhile.....but fingers crossed!

Current Parameters:
Phoshate: .06. Hannah ULR
Nitrate 10.5 Hannah
Alk 9.1 Hannah (I don't trust my trident on this one)
Calcium 436 Trident
Mag 1405 Trident
PH: Ranges during the day 8.2-8.3
Salt: 34.9
temp: 78
Tank: RR525 - approx 125 total water volume - been running for 1.5 years. Originally started with dry rock - but I've added live sand in the last 6 weeks from Aquabiomics.

Anyone else decide to let the tank figure it out? Am I being stupid? LOL



Back story - in my last tank - a 30 gallon bio cube had prorocentrum - which I did fight with silicate - and won. But I'm wondering if I had just increased biodiversity - would the outcome have been the same?

 

[KonradTO]

I currently have LCA.....I'm going to try to just let the tank do it's thing and see what happens - although I have added live sand from Aquabiomics to increase biodiversity - and I do dose Phyto. Since LCA isn't toxic, and mainly stays on the sand and looks yucky....I'm wondering if I just stay the course.....will it eventually be outcompeted?? Has anyone just let the tank try to balance out itself? I'm not even sure how they took over. My nutrients never dropped....I did notice that I had a bloom pretty soon after I dosed Chaeto Gro - I'm wondering if that is what gave them a foot hold. Anyway.....I'm not going to do anything else drastic....just keep parameters in check - and keep dosing phyto/pods. I know this may take awhile.....but fingers crossed!

Current Parameters:
Phoshate: .06. Hannah ULR
Nitrate 10.5 Hannah
Alk 9.1 Hannah (I don't trust my trident on this one)
Calcium 436 Trident
Mag 1405 Trident
PH: Ranges during the day 8.2-8.3
Salt: 34.9
temp: 78
Tank: RR525 - approx 125 total water volume - been running for 1.5 years. Originally started with dry rock - but I've added live sand in the last 6 weeks from Aquabiomics.

Anyone else decide to let the tank figure it out? Am I being stupid? LOL



Back story - in my last tank - a 30 gallon bio cube had prorocentrum - which I did fight with silicate - and won. But I'm wondering if I had just increased biodiversity - would the outcome have been the same?

I think that what silicate dosing does is basically that. Increases diversity of diatoms which feed microfauna in turn