Anthias dropping like flies in my QT.

[Hal3134]

I ordered 8 lyretail anthias from LA last week. They all arrived looking fine. I acclimated them to temp and matched the salinity in my QT to their shipping water and put them in a 20L QT. The QT has lots of pvc pipe and a few plastic plants for hiding. It has a MJ1200 with the fan splitter on the end for good flow in the tank. There are both high and low flow areas. Lighting is from the room, so the tank itself is dim.

I've lost 3 anthias in the last 4-5 days. The first death came on day 5(?) in the QT, 48 hours after tank transfer #1 which also includes a dose of prazi pro. Next death was 24-48 hours later, and then a 3rd death 24 hours after the second death (24 hours after tank transfer #2 into un-medicated water). There were no obvious trauma or disease as I examined the dead fish.

One of the surviving anthias has a noticably elongated 2nd dorsal spine, which I take as indication that it is turning male. All of the others are/were smaller and do not show any signs of becoming male.

It's difficult to tell how much they are eating. I did observe one anthias pooping recently, so at least that one was eating. I see them generally making darting motions indicative of eating, and mouthing, but it's difficult to determine if they actually are eating. I've fed PE mysis, smaller mysis, frozen brine, frozen spirulina brine, Rods fish-only, marine cuisine, NL pellets, Emerald entree, frozen fish eggs, and crushed flakes. I'm aware that anthias need small bits to eat.

This happened once before to me and I'm wondering if this is "normal" or what else I should be looking at. Is the "male" deciding that 7 females are too many and killing them off?

#reefsquad

 

[HotRocks]

I ordered 8 lyretail anthias from LA last week. They all arrived looking fine. I acclimated them to temp and matched the salinity in my QT to their shipping water and put them in a 20L QT. The QT has lots of pvc pipe and a few plastic plants for hiding. It has a MJ1200 with the fan splitter on the end for good flow in the tank. There are both high and low flow areas. Lighting is from the room, so the tank itself is dim.

I've lost 3 anthias in the last 4-5 days. The first death came on day 5(?) in the QT, 48 hours after tank transfer #1 which also includes a dose of prazi pro. Next death was 24-48 hours later, and then a 3rd death 24 hours after the second death (24 hours after tank transfer #2 into un-medicated water). There were no obvious trauma or disease as I examined the dead fish.

One of the surviving anthias has a noticably elongated 2nd dorsal spine, which I take as indication that it is turning male. All of the others are/were smaller and do not show any signs of becoming male.

It's difficult to tell how much they are eating. I did observe one anthias pooping recently, so at least that one was eating. I see them generally making darting motions indicative of eating, and mouthing, but it's difficult to determine if they actually are eating. I've fed PE mysis, smaller mysis, frozen brine, frozen spirulina brine, Rods fish-only, marine cuisine, NL pellets, Emerald entree, frozen fish eggs, and crushed flakes. I'm aware that anthias need small bits to eat.

This happened once before to me and I'm wondering if this is "normal" or what else I should be looking at. Is the "male" deciding that 7 females are too many and killing them off?

#reefsquad

If it were aggression kills you would likely see the aggression in the tank constantly. Also the deceased fish would probably be a bit beat up if you had a fish in there that was picking them off.

Any redness or anything?

Any white stringy poop?

Uronema and intestinal parasites could be at play. Purely a guess, just based on my own experience.

@Lasse do you have any advice for this member? Losing several new anthias that haven't been medicated other than praziquantel, no signs of disease. Fish are now in a med free tank.

 

[Hal3134]

No white stringy poop, and the prazi-pro should have helped with that if there were. No distinct redness, although it can be difficult to tell because of their natural coloration. The "male" has occasionally chased the others, but nothing major. No signs on the dead fish of being beat up.

Given the lack of external signs, my best bet is shipping trauma or that the anthias is just a delicate fish. I'd feel better in my diagnosis if I had more aggressive feeding by them. Oh yeah, I also fed frozen bloodworms.

 

[lagatbezan]

Prazipro tends to deplete oxygen from the tank. Do you have a good surface agitation?
You also want to make sure they are eating. A small light on top of the tank will help.
Personally i used to be a big supporter of TTM but with velvet becoming so popular I no longer go that route. Velvet and Uronema are both fast killers and treating for it first is always best.
I had success quarantining 5 bimac anthias that were recently just added to my DT. when they came in I did a 40 min formalin bath and into qt. Dropped salinity to hypo within 24 hours. kept in hypo for a week as well as treated with metro for 14 days in the water column and added to their food to treat for uronema. The hypo treats flukes and tends to keeps Velvet and ich at bay if they are present.
after 7 days of hypo I slowly ramped up salinity (2-4 days) and then started cupramine for 16 days of therapeutic level. after that into a new qt and did two rounds of GC (just as a precaution). Observed for a full month and the into DT they went.

 

[Lasse]

You have write 20L - what does it stands for. 20 litres. 20 gallon or something else?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Hal3134]

Prazipro tends to deplete oxygen from the tank. Do you have a good surface agitation?.

Yes, the powerhead agitates the surface, and I also have an airstone in the tank.

You have write 20L - what does it stands for. 20 litres. 20 gallon or something else?

20L = 20 long = 20 gallons.

 

[Hal3134]

I'd also note that all fish are swimming normally in the evening, but have been found dead upon turning the lights on in the room in the morning.

I normally check on them first thing in the morning, after work (5 pm ish), some other time in the evening, then again at lights out around 11 pm.

 

[Rgbpixels]

Of the 4 that I purchased from LA, only one survived. Sorry to hear your news.

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

Do they die with their mouth open? That’s could be a sign of uronema.

 

[Hal3134]

1 had open mouth. 2 were closed.

 

[Hal3134]

Well, I just had the misfortune to watch #4 die. It was the male, the largest of the 8. It was huddled against the bottom of a pvc pipe. I looked away from it while I added a 1/4 dose of Prime in case it was ammonia that was causing things. After I closed the lid and looked down, it had rolled onto its side. It twitched a couple of times , and died. Ugh.

For reference, I received a sailfin tang, bangaii, and a sixline in the same shipment from LA. They are in a separate 10g tank, using the same water and salt, and are fine.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

I don't see a mention of the filtration for this tank? Or since its a transfer method, there is none? Probably should be testing ammonia daily, sounds like the tank is overloaded for a 20 long. Anthias need to be fed at least 2-3 times daily, so maybe the TTM isn't appropriate here and you should switch to an oversized sponge filter, dose Dr. Tim's One and Only. Just surface agitation may not be enough aeration for prazi. Sponge filter or air stone to make sure there's enough 02

 

[Lasse]

Please - if you do not want to read a long and winding text - go to the last sentence for a brief summary

Pseudanthias squamipinnis is a large fish that start the change of sex around 5 cm (around 2"). Is a zooplankton picker where the large aggregations of fishes are their "get away" place. They seek cover in the aggreation of fish rather than among stones or corals. It is known to be a fish rather difficult to transport and acklimate - as most fish that school or live in large aggregations.

I was staying out from this thread because there was to less of information that could point me in one or another direction. Simply too few clues that could give me an idea of the cause of the deaths. Because I was tagged in I decided to answer. But my answer will still be - I have not a clue what´s going on and therefore no advises to give.

Of course, I can guess and then it would include guesses about previous chemicals or/and species sensitivity for some chemicals or/and individual sensitivity to certain chemicals or/and transport damage or/and stress or/and aggression or/and to small QT or/and stress related physical changes or/and water poisoning (including NH3 toxicity) or/and stress related supression of the immune deficiency or/and species specific stress response or/and individual specific stress response or/and oxygen deficiency or/and hundreds of other unknown factors (an obligate pathogen is one of the possible factors). In this hundred of other factors - there is also a possibillity for and art specific pathogen because the other fishes (from the same vendor) in an other QT does not die.

But - honestly these guesses are worthless - because they are just guesses - there is not even evidences enough to give any direction of whats happens IMO.

Could a fully chemical prophylactic treatment have saved these fish - maybe/maybe not, Could an observation QT saved these fish - maybe/maybe not (however we could exclude death by chemical treatment). Could "QT" in a complete working system or a refugium saved these fish - maybe/maybe not (however - further excluding factors include some of the stress factors). Could drop and pray saved these fish maybe/maybe not (however excluding some factors it will introduce some new factors).

This was a long text which can be summarized in one sentence: I don't have any ideas that I can prove for caused these deaths

Sincerely Lasse

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/uronema-becoming-big-problem-these-days-aside-from-chromis.529955/

 

[Haydn]

You state you have 8 Lyretails in a 20 gallon tank with a lid, you were treating with Prazipro. Assuming the anthias were of the usual size (2 1/2"-3") then you had 1 1/2' to 2' of

high metabolism stressed fish in 20 galls. This may lead to low oxygen levels in the tank. Decaying food (you state you weren't sure if the fish were feeding) will also add to O2 depletion.

Coupled with that Lyretails have a high hierarchy drive, when they are moved they all (males and females) use aggression to decide their individual positions in the new hierarchy, there is no guarantee that the existing male will maintain it's position and it is likely to be challenged by one or more of the females. Female Lyretails also maintain a dominance hierarchy so there will be aggression between them.​

I think what you have experienced is a common issue with trying to QT anthias and is the reason many peoples anthias fail to survive it.​

 

[Hal3134]

Update: The population has stabilized at 4 for the last 48 hours. I fed them canalus, which they seemed to eat. It's difficult to tell though because the canalus is so small. I plan to introduce them to my DT tomorrow night after completing the tank transfer method. Yes, it is an abbreviated quarantine, but I am hoping that they will do better in the DT with more room, hiding places, and food sources.

As to oxygen levels, my powerhead is agitating the surface, AND I have an airstone. I doubt that oxygen is an issue.

It is very helpful for people to chime in on their experience with anthias, so thank you all for that (and the other comments too).

 

[Sailfinguy21]

Fyi dont do hyposalinity with anthias. They cant handle it.. trust me i lost 8 of them from it... so whoever suggested hypo they are wrong

 

[Hal3134]

Fyi dont do hyposalinity with anthias. They cant handle it.. trust me i lost 8 of them from it... so whoever suggested hypo they are wrong

Thanks. Good to know. I don't do hypo anymore since I started the tank transfer method. On the flip side, not that I'm disagreeing with you, but it seems like anthias are a bit delicate in QT.

I wish there was a good chart or list of which fish don't do well with treatment X. For example, I learned that sixline wrasses don't handle Prazipro well.

 

[Sailfinguy21]

I learned alot of things as well. Hyposalinity worked for me in controlling and killing ich.. so far 3 weeks no signs of it.. i hope its gone anyway.

But during that time i kearned naso tangs cant handle prazipro either.. they bloat mine bloated so bad his guts were starting to come out if his anal openeing.. i saved him and hes still alive but yea.

Also learned anthias. Flame angels. Butterfly fish and blue tangs at least mine cant hsndle hypo.. they bloat from water retention and it looks like dropsy... Yet information in articles said all fish can handle it.. not true. Makes me wonder if people who write these articles even tried it with all fish ect

 

[Hal3134]

Without trying to derail this thread about anthias, I used to do hypo but switched to tank transfer method when it was discovered that certain strains of ich could survive hypo.