Anthias with fin issue

[ngoodermuth]

Does it sound like there's any hurry to get them started on copper? I'll hold off on that if not
Should I be dosing anything for bacterial infection? I have kanaplex on hand

How’s breathing? Any scratching, swimming into powerheads, etc?

It’s completely up to you. I’d say if you don’t see any other symptoms you’d be less likely to have issues waiting... but no guarantees. Many times, gill damage can kill quicker than we actually see symptoms in the case of something like velvet... so as @HotRocks mentioned it’s often better to have copper running sooner than later. But again, that’s your call.

 

[Bthomas]

I'm not seeing any other symptoms I just really wanna play it safe with these guys. If that means I should get copper started now I'll do that rather then putting it off. Think there's less risk of losing them by treating all the meds at once rather then waiting?
Is it 100% necessary to do water change between doses of prazi?

 

[ngoodermuth]

And kanaplex, if you’d like to add it in with your next metroplex dose, it might help if it is bacterial. You could also add Furan-2 for a broader spectrum coverage. Just remember that you’d want to dose for at least 10 days from when you start it so it might overlap with your copper treatment as well.

Do you have a picture of the “brown” area you mentioned? Is it fuzzy in appearance or look more like its part of the skin?

 

[ngoodermuth]

I'm not seeing any other symptoms I just really wanna play it safe with these guys. If that means I should get copper started now I'll do that rather then putting it off. Think there's less risk of losing them by treating all the meds at once rather then waiting?
Is it 100% necessary to do water change between doses of prazi?

This is one of those gray areas I think... add more meds to hopefully get the fish feeling better and therefore eating, or hold meds until they fish is eating well to avoid appetite suppression.

I hate to tell you to do one or the other and have it be the wrong call... if it is bacterial though, antibiotics are more effective without the presence of copper so there’s that too.

I’m sorry I can’t be more helpful... lol It’s one of the nuisances of trying to treat multiple ailments at once. Especially without a positive ID on any of them...

Edit.

Just thinking on this more, I think with the lack of positive ID I’m going to have to say stick to @HotRocks QT protocol as best you can, which would include starting copper. Kanaplex would not be a bad idea either.

 

[Bthomas]

This is one of those gray areas I think... add more meds to hopefully get the fish feeling better and therefore eating, or hold meds until they fish is eating well to avoid appetite suppression.

I hate to tell you to do one or the other and have it be the wrong call... if it is bacterial though, antibiotics are more effective without the presence of copper so there’s that too.

I’m sorry I can’t be more helpful... lol It’s one of the nuisances of trying to treat multiple ailments at once. Especially without a positive ID on any of them...

Ah this is so stressful lol I honestly don't know what to do..
I do not have a photo of the brown spot I tried but couldn't get it. It's not fuzzy at all it just looks a patch of discoloration. Looks like a bruise to me.. That's the best way to describe it

 

[ngoodermuth]

Ah this is so stressful lol I honestly don't know what to do..
I do not have a photo of the brown spot I tried but couldn't get it. It's not fuzzy at all it just looks a patch of discoloration. Looks like a bruise to me.. That's the best way to describe it

You’ve said you dealt with uronema before... it doesn’t look like that?

 

[Bthomas]

You’ve said you dealt with uronema before... it doesn’t look like that?

Well I hadn't thought uronema because it's not red but the patch does resemble that it just isn't the right color? Could it just look brown on these guys..

 

[HotRocks]

Ah this is so stressful lol I honestly don't know what to do..
I do not have a photo of the brown spot I tried but couldn't get it. It's not fuzzy at all it just looks a patch of discoloration. Looks like a bruise to me.. That's the best way to describe it

Personally I'd be adding the meds. Again as mentioned above that is your call. If the "brown discolored area" is Uronema or bacterial then the copper will prohibit the effectiveness of the metro and Antibiotics. This is because copper is an immunosuppressant.

I always start fish right off in copper. It will typically let anything else show it's face quickly but I get the fish through copper ASAP then cleanup whatever is left.

Metro will erradicate Uronema and Brook during copper no problem. Bacterial infections can be controlled during copper but sometimes require a full round of NFG post copper to be completely eliminated.

 

[Bthomas]

Personally I'd be adding the meds. Again as mentioned above that is your call. If the "brown discolored area" is Uronema or bacterial then the copper will prohibit the effectiveness of the metro and Antibiotics. This is because copper is an immunosuppressant.

I always start fish right off in copper. It will typically let anything else show it's face quickly but I get the fish through copper ASAP then cleanup whatever is left.

Metro will erradicate Uronema and Brook during copper no problem. Bacterial infections can be controlled during copper but sometimes require a full round of NFG post copper to be completely eliminated.

I'm planing to do 30 days of copper though since I don't have another tank to transfer them to after 14 days. So getting them through copper quick isn't really an option.

If were leaning toward bacterial or uronema would it be better to hold off on copper

 

[Bthomas]

Will a bacterial infection be ok for 30 days if I wait until after copper to treat it?

 

[ngoodermuth]

Will a bacterial infection be ok for 30 days if I wait until after copper to treat it?

I wouldn’t wait 30 days to treat a bacterial infection. I’d treat the antibiotics with copper, and then again after copper if needed. If it is uronema, you REALLY need to get them eating because it can spread internally as well so they should be fed food soaked in metroplex also.

The acriflavine bath can be useful as well, at knocking back infection to make the antibiotics more effective.

 

[Bthomas]

Ok I just noticed one of them flashing.. I guess copper it is.

I also just dosed kanaplex along with the 3rd dose of metro today. Is kanaplex a 10 day treatment too? The package says no more then 3 doses

What should the water change schedule be like with all these meds in the water?

 

[ngoodermuth]

Metro and kanaplex are both every 48 hours after a waterchange. I would try to time your second dose of prazi to coincide with an already scheduled water change/ dose for those.

I always do at least 10 days of kanaplex. You can do the metroplex for up to 14 days as well, especially for uronema, so I’d keep that going until the kanaplex is finished.

 

[Bthomas]

Metro and kanaplex are both every 48 hours after a waterchange. I would try to time your second dose of prazi to coincide with an already scheduled water change/ dose for those.

I always do at least 10 days of kanaplex. You can do the metroplex for up to 14 days as well, especially for uronema, so I’d keep that going until the kanaplex is finished.

I didn't know to do a waterchange between doses of metro so I had not been doing that, is that bad? I was just planning to do one before and after the next prazi dose

 

[ngoodermuth]

I’ve always done a waterchange before every dose with the antibiotics... but I’ve seen others say it’s not necessary at all. So, there’s some wiggle room there if you’re concerned about doing that many waterchanges. If you had to do say, every other dose, I don’t think it would be end of the world.

 

[Bthomas]

This is unrelated but can one of you clarify something for me. I know I've asked elsewhere but I either don't remember the answer or didn't understand the answer cause I'm still unclear on this lol

Why is it that the 14 day copper treatment only works if you have another tank to move them to after the 14 days?
If it kills ich and velvet in 14 days why can't you just treat for that long and then remove the copper from the tank?

 

[ngoodermuth]

It has to do with the encysted stage of the parasite. The copper only kills the parasites in their free-swimming stage, when they burst out of their cysts in search of a fish host. Once they find a fish, they burrow in and are protected by the fish itself to feed and mature.

After this, the mature parasite drops off of the fish and settles into the substrate where they form their protective cyst-cocoon. That’s where they reproduce, and the cycle begins again. The longest known strain’s lifecycle was 72 days... [emoji15]

But, most complete their entire life cycle within 30 days hence the recommendation. If you wait 14 days the parasites on the fish have a chance to mature and fall off the fish, so if you transfer them away without lowering the copper you are leaving the newly formed cysts behind.

If not, you have to wait until the new cysts that were formed burst, and all of the free swimmers destroyed/lifecycle broken so that they don’t just become reinfected after you lower the copper. Technically speaking, even 30 days is a bit short of the possible 72 day lifecycle (why it’s recommended to leave a display fallow for 76 days) but it’s hard on the fish to be in copper much longer than that, so 30 days is a low- risk, happy medium.

In all honestly, it’s much better to use the transfer method. Then you can be sure the fish are fully eradicated and it’s much better for the health of your fish because of the shortened copper exposure.

 

[Bthomas]

It has to do with the encysted stage of the parasite. The copper only kills the parasites in their free-swimming stage, when they burst out of their cysts in search of a fish host. Once they find a fish, they burrow in and are protected by the fish itself to feed and mature.

After this, the mature parasite drops off of the fish and settles into the substrate where they form their protective cyst-cocoon. That’s where they reproduce, and the cycle begins again. The longest known strain’s lifecycle was 72 days... [emoji15]

But, most complete their entire life cycle within 30 days hence the recommendation. If you wait 14 days the parasites on the fish have a chance to mature and fall off the fish, so if you transfer them away without lowering the copper you are leaving the newly formed cysts behind.

If not, you have to wait until the new cysts that were formed burst, and all of the free swimmers destroyed/lifecycle broken so that they don’t just become reinfected after you lower the copper. Technically speaking, even 30 days is a bit short of the possible 72 day lifecycle (why it’s recommended to leave a display fallow for 76 days) but it’s hard on the fish to be in copper much longer than that, so 30 days is a low- risk, happy medium.

In all honestly, it’s much better to use the transfer method. Then you can be sure the fish are fully eradicated and it’s much better for the health of your fish because of the shortened copper exposure.

Thanks so much. That makes alot more sense now. I wasn't aware that the copper didn't kill the parasites on the fish.

 

[Bthomas]

So after this discussion I think im going to head out tomorrow and see about getting the necessary equipment for a second quarantine tank.
If I get it all set up and cycled in the next 2 weeks I can go ahead and transfer these fish to the new tank.
That would still be a good plan correct? Even tho I'm treating all the meds currently with the copper. Once they get to the new tank it would be strictly observation with no meds unless there are still problems right?

 

[ngoodermuth]

So after this discussion I think im going to head out tomorrow and see about getting the necessary equipment for a second quarantine tank.
If I get it all set up and cycled in the next 2 weeks I can go ahead and transfer these fish to the new tank.
That would still be a good plan correct? Even tho I'm treating all the meds currently with the copper. Once they get to the new tank it would be strictly observation with no meds unless there are still problems right?

Right. Like mentioned previously, if there is something bacterial still ongoing after copper you may need a second course of antibiotics. But you could just see how they do without meds first, and go from there. It’s recommended to let fish go at least two weeks unmedicated, without any symptoms, before transferring to your display.