Aquarium Return Pump Size?
- Thread starter CLR48
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KoleTang
Valuable Member
Lots of people use too much GPH through their sump (thinking they can save on in tank circulation). Your sump should not be the Kalahari. I use a tunze silence at around 700 GPH on my 57g, which is probably a bit too much, but I have it dialed down a bit.
If you have too much GPH, you can use a T fitting to pump some back into the sump. You can also run reactors off your return.
If you have too much GPH, you can use a T fitting to pump some back into the sump. You can also run reactors off your return.
OP
OP
CLR48
Well-Known Member
Yes on the refugium no on the reactors for now at least. It's a 30gal long I'm using as a sump and it will be pumping it not quite 6ft up to the top of the tank. But it will have a T because it needs to feed two returns
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Planedoc
Active Member
At 150 total water volume ( 180 - expansion room in sump, rock, sand and equipment) I would look for 800 - 1200 gph after about 10 feet head loss. That is enough to power a refugium and a reactor if you wish to.
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backpack
Active Member
so you have six feet of head to push. look at the manufacturers specs for the brands your interested in. Iwaki, reeflo, daner, rio are all pumps to look at. as long as your not keeping sps a 600-800 gph flow at 6 feet will probably be all you need. So check out pricing, reliability, and power usage on all of these and it will be clear. If I had a big budget I would buy an Iwaki. If I need a wet pump I would buy a used daner for cheap. A reeflo blowhole would probably work well for you also if your sumps drilled. A tunzee or a rio would probably be pushing it based on the head height though.
Planedoc
Active Member
With a 30 Gallon sump it would be hard to add a refugium in the sump. It can be done but it would be tight. If you do a separate one you can plumb it several different ways. I tee off the pressure side of pump (most going to display and some going to fuge. I let the return from the fuge go back into the sump just before the bubble trap but after the skimmer
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Planedoc
Active Member
Remember when calculating head loss it's not just height but loss from friction in pipes and loss of flow from the pipe pipe fittings and valves. 3/4 inch has a very high loss compared to 1 inch. 6 feet up + 6 feet across with 4 90 degree fitting a ball valve and 2 outlets = 17 feet head loss. It's very important to keep the plumbing as straight and simple as possible. Recently I have been heating my pvc and bending it rather than using head increasing fittings.
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backpack
Active Member
At 17 feet head you would need a mag 36 or a reeflo blowhole 2700 gph to flow 700 gph. That doesn't add up to a 100 gal tank you could keep coral in to me. You may want to rethink that. I have a lot of pipe under my 180 with a 40 gal sump and a mag 18 is more than enough. I have 6 ball valves and probably 25 feet of 3/4.
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Planedoc
Active Member
If you search for reef head loss calculator there is a good one out there.
It says.
With a mag 18 and 6 feet vertical + 6 feet horizontal + 4 90 degree fitting one ball valve and 2 outlets with 3/4 inch pvc =
Total losses are 12.17 feet of head pressure, or 5.26 PSI.*with a flow rate of*664 GPH.
With 1 inch pipe its
Total losses are 9.49 feet of head pressure, or 4.1 PSI.*with a flow rate of*875 GPH.
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It says.
With a mag 18 and 6 feet vertical + 6 feet horizontal + 4 90 degree fitting one ball valve and 2 outlets with 3/4 inch pvc =
Total losses are 12.17 feet of head pressure, or 5.26 PSI.*with a flow rate of*664 GPH.
With 1 inch pipe its
Total losses are 9.49 feet of head pressure, or 4.1 PSI.*with a flow rate of*875 GPH.
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hunter01975
Community Member
I would not run under 1200 at a min. I have a 70 gallon dt with a 20 gallon sump I run a hob crp cs-90 600gph and return pump is a iwaki 30 american made after head lose it is at about 900-1000 on my set up and then I have 2 ball valves on both in and out lets to equalize the wear and pressure on both sides.
I have a 1 inch return hose that y's in the lin-lock is 3/4. no crazy pressure just a real nice current across the top of the tank
hope this helps I know not all of it is the same cause you have a drilled tank.
I have a 1 inch return hose that y's in the lin-lock is 3/4. no crazy pressure just a real nice current across the top of the tank
hope this helps I know not all of it is the same cause you have a drilled tank.
Never put a ball valve on the suction side of a pump. Always install valves on the discharge side which in no way harms the pump and does not cause cavitation like suction side valves do. There is no such thing as equalizing the wear on both sides, discharge side only and wide open unrestricted positive suction head on the suction.
mcarroll
10K Club member
Awesome hack, especially in a pinch, but I dunno about heating the PVC as far as the material maybe losing a little bit of integrity. Leaching, failure...worries. I think you'd have to be careful with how much heat you apply..thermoforming only happens around 400ºF or even a lot less....flame is typically a lot more than that.
They do make so-called FlexPVC for this very purpose and I've known people to use it extensively where crazy plumbing would otherwise be called for.
Either this or vinyl tubing would be preferred to heating rigid PVC IMO. Purpose-made - not too expensive.
Check out FlexPVC.com for a start.
Sort've a plumbing geek's dream site.
-Matt
They do make so-called FlexPVC for this very purpose and I've known people to use it extensively where crazy plumbing would otherwise be called for.
Either this or vinyl tubing would be preferred to heating rigid PVC IMO. Purpose-made - not too expensive.
Check out FlexPVC.com for a start.
Sort've a plumbing geek's dream site.
-Matt
hunter01975
Community Member
not saying your wrong but there are some interesting reads about pumps and back pressure.
I am not a plumber and can not provide you fact on these statements other than it seems to be working very well on my setup and I have no cavitation and no micro bubble issues. And I feel it allows me to have a little more control over the flow.
So I guess all i would say to the org poster, take my words with a grain of salt. Which is good cause we all have some salt laying around.
Planedoc
Active Member
This is what I recommended.
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At 150 total water volume ( 180 - expansion room in sump, rock, sand and equipment) I would look for 800 - 1200 gph after about 10 feet head loss. That is enough to power a refugium and a reactor if you wish to.
We can go on about bending pipe but it is not what this thread was about.
Pvc scd 40 is meant to withstand 330 psi. I use a heat gun to heat and bend and yes it does stretch the outside of corners. I'm sure not enough that the max 20 psi we run in a fish tank would be a worry. If you have ever used spa flex (pvc that is meant to be bent) you will know that you need to heat it up to bend it.
As far as ball valves on suction side, it's not recommended. Most high quality electronically controlled pump actually will use less energy when throttled down on the pressure side, but not on the suction side. Just remember that
1. We are running an average of less than 10 psi
2. The less pipe and less fittings and valves = the least amount of head pressure and more flow.
3. You want around 4-6 (some say 3-5) times total water volume running through your sump.
4. Your pump runs 24/7 and you will pay for its electricity, it's important to get a quality pump that is sized correctly.
Mag pumps are good long lasting pumps but are not the most economical.
I run a laguna max flow 2500 on my 240 Gallon with 270 Gallon total water volume and it puts out about 1400 gph while only using a 100 watts of power.
A comparable mag 24 uses 265 watts and accomplishes the same thing.
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mcarroll
10K Club member
Flexpvc comes on a spool and is only semi rigid - it is designed to be flexible and bend without heat. I've never needed to heat it because I've always used as designed.
Heating will work (never said it wouldn't, just that it carries some risk of danger...I'd do some reading before trying this as a newb if anyone is considering it. There's plenty to read.) but is only needed for exceeding the design of the pipe. FWIW, I haven't read anything on heating FlexPVC and it does have a different composition, so YMMV. DO YOUR HOMEWORK...that's all I'm sayin.
To get back on topic:
600 gph of actual return flow (including head loss, etc) will be sufficient…less would even do it. Overkill buys you almost nothing.
Try using this head loss calculator to give you an idea what you need to be looking for.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/calculators/pump-calculator.htm
I'm guessing something like a Mag 12 or close should do it unless your plumbing is really crazy.
FWIW, some people co-opt the 2nd return and make a tertiary backup drain out of it. Read up on the so-called BeanAnimal overflow or drain. Not really 100% necessary and you may feel like you want the 2nd return outlet so just thought I'd mention it.
-Matt
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Heating will work (never said it wouldn't, just that it carries some risk of danger...I'd do some reading before trying this as a newb if anyone is considering it. There's plenty to read.) but is only needed for exceeding the design of the pipe. FWIW, I haven't read anything on heating FlexPVC and it does have a different composition, so YMMV. DO YOUR HOMEWORK...that's all I'm sayin.
To get back on topic:
600 gph of actual return flow (including head loss, etc) will be sufficient…less would even do it. Overkill buys you almost nothing.
Try using this head loss calculator to give you an idea what you need to be looking for.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/calculators/pump-calculator.htm
I'm guessing something like a Mag 12 or close should do it unless your plumbing is really crazy.
FWIW, some people co-opt the 2nd return and make a tertiary backup drain out of it. Read up on the so-called BeanAnimal overflow or drain. Not really 100% necessary and you may feel like you want the 2nd return outlet so just thought I'd mention it.
-Matt
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I have 38 years in the water pump business and can tell you from experience, never place a restriction in front of a centruifugal pump. It will cause problems and there is no such thing as balancing the pressure. Cenntrifugal pumps work by creating a low pressure area or even vacuum at the eye of the impeller then centrifugal force around the vanes. Valving the suction side is detrimental to the pumps operation. Use as few fittings as possible on the suctionside if any at all, filters are not really good either since they clog and rob the positive suction head required to operate efficiently.
mcarroll
10K Club member
+1
Only exception I know is when the manufacturer designs the flow control into the pump that way. FWIW, I've never seen this on pumps >1000gph aside from a single manufacturer.
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