...are closed loops becoming obsolete?

[DeniseAndy]

Hi Shep - Not a dumb question! A closed loop is just a setup where you are taking water from the tank and pumping it right back into the tank, as opposed to e.g. letting the water overflow down into a sump and pumping it back up. The plumbing going to and from the closed loop pump can either use bulkheads in holes drilled in the tank walls, or it can be plumbed up and over the edge of the tank. In general the pump itself sits at the same height as the tank, so there is no head pressure and you do not need a pressure-rated pump to run one.

Also, a closed loop is for circulation only. It is not a filtration method. That is the sump and other equipments job.

 

[SPotter]

I just did the calculations for a build I'm putting together. 36000 gph total flow.

If I ran closed loop it would look like this....WITHOUT buying the plumbing bits...

Pricing per month:
Return pump: tiger shark $93
Skimmer pump: dart $14
Closed loop pumps: manta ray x4 $270
2x gyre 150s: $9

Total cost per month: $386 or $4632 per year!!!!!

Cost with DC pumps

Per month:

Return: 2x vectra l1s: $22
Skimmer: 1x vectra L1 $11
Flow: ecodrift 20s x4 $21
2x gyre 150s: $9

Total cost is $63 per month or $756 per year.

Savings of $3876 per year for a huge amount of water flow.

It would cost me 6x as much per year to run a closed loop system on my 600 gallon tank. I can't ignore that.

part of the idea behind closed loops is not so much the gph but the flow coming from different areas of the tank causing a more natural flow. Your estimates are way overboard for what you would need unless you are setting up a system similar to Bill Wann's.

 

[dbl]

Case closed. HELLO DC PUMPS, goodbye loop!

Just my opinion here, and certainly not trying to step on any toes, but I don’t think this type of conclusion is quite so evident.

I truly think each system needs to be looked at individually. Each person’s goals may be slightly different from their fellow reefers (other than keeping things alive and happy) and that’s okay, or at least it should be okay.

As an example, earlier in this conversation, I indicated my electric bill went up by only $30 per month when I started my system. After doing a little homework last night, turns out it actually went up by about $55 per month. Now, in all honesty, I do not have the desire to look at everything on a “per watt” basis, I’m just looking at the aggregate. I guess my attitude might be a little different (I know my wife’s would be) if I was paying $.40 +/- per kWh as stated by someone, but I’m at $.10 per kWh. In my case, my A/C runs all year long, my bill is already high, and the extra $55 is just a cost of doing business, as the old saying goes.

In the spirit in which this thread started, and based on several comments made, I really do think there are some circumstances a CL is appropriate, if not desired. Be it flow reasons, be it cosmetic, be it because you want something different, it’s a personal decision. I’ve found the information in this discussion really great, and I think what we’ve discovered is, if we are careful, there are potential savings to be had with some of the newer technologies available to the users of CL’s.

But again, these are just my opinions and what the “HE double-hockey sticks” do I know!!!

 

[ballroomdude]

part of the idea behind closed loops is not so much the gph but the flow coming from different areas of the tank causing a more natural flow. Your estimates are way overboard for what you would need unless you are setting up a system similar to Bill Wann's.

I certainly like the idea of flow from different areas and will more than likely have a few more conversations with Dave from vivid aquariums about my ideas and the setup on their 800 gallon tank that have been detailed on youtube. Even If I dropped the gyre's and ran the dual vectra returns each through an oceans motions manifold it would give me flow from 12 different point in a large "L shaped" tank which should be ok. I'd still probably be in the 26000 gph total flow area which is going to end up being in the neighborhood of 40x total turnover. I'm planning on some big sloppy fish that require I be on top of the water quality and I'm really trying to focus on keeping the water completely stirred up to make sure that everything makes it to the surface and gets skimmed out. I'd rather have a bit to much flow than "maybe just enough"

That being said, I'm always willing to learn from a different perspective. Why am I over doing it?

 

[ballroomdude]

Bump...

 

[SPotter]

I certainly like the idea of flow from different areas and will more than likely have a few more conversations with Dave from vivid aquariums about my ideas and the setup on their 800 gallon tank that have been detailed on youtube. Even If I dropped the gyre's and ran the dual vectra returns each through an oceans motions manifold it would give me flow from 12 different point in a large "L shaped" tank which should be ok. I'd still probably be in the 26000 gph total flow area which is going to end up being in the neighborhood of 40x total turnover. I'm planning on some big sloppy fish that require I be on top of the water quality and I'm really trying to focus on keeping the water completely stirred up to make sure that everything makes it to the surface and gets skimmed out. I'd rather have a bit to much flow than "maybe just enough"

That being said, I'm always willing to learn from a different perspective. Why am I over doing it?

your estimated running costs are extremely high. there are much more energy efficient pumps that pump the same gph or even more than the manta ray which is reported to be 770 watts for a little 5000 gph. You could use the Dolphin Amp master pumps. I was running the 4750 which provides 4750 gph and when I putt the watt meter on that it was drawing 188w's or you could use the 6250 which pushes 6250 gph and the watt meter on that is 330w's. What made you choose the manta ray as the pump to use?

 

[ballroomdude]

Because I wasn't aware of the other pumps you mentioned. The last time I was I the hobby was 15 years ago when reeflo was just hitting the market and I wasn't aware of any other pumps that flowed that much short of pond pumps. I'm getting back into things after a long time off and learning as I go before purchasing anything for the tank I'm putting together.

I'm very aware that there are things Ive missed in the time I've been away and each day I research and learn more.

Thanks for pointing those pumps out. I'll definitely be giving them a look and replying.

 

[ballroomdude]

I like the idea of the dolphin 6250s......

3 of them would work and keep things simple. 1 for the return and 2 more for closed loop work. I could probably run a couple of eductors on a couple of the return nozzles and have 12 points of flow into the aquarium if I sent all of them thru oceans motions manifolds. Could be very fun.

 

[SPotter]

if you decide to go with them just make sure you order them with the "type 3 seal".

 

[ballroomdude]

Sounds good

 

[cu455]

I didn't read this whole thread but skimming through it I didn't see anything about closed looped systems with filtration incorporated in it. My current build is being done this way. It will be pump -->skimmer-->bead filter-->carbon/bio pellets-->UV-->tank. No need for overflows or a sump and it makes the plumbing much simpler.

 

[JasReef]

I didn't read this whole thread but skimming through it I didn't see anything about closed looped systems with filtration incorporated in it. My current build is being done this way. It will be pump -->skimmer-->bead filter-->carbon/bio pellets-->UV-->tank. No need for overflows or a sump and it makes the plumbing much simpler.

That sounds like a big homemade canister filter. [emoji6]

 

[gcarroll]

It's not really a closed loop however I'm curious to see how you make this work. Here are the problems I see.

I don't see a way to incorporate a skimmer unless it is last and situated above the tank. What skimmer are you planning?
Typically, you need to run bio pellets at a low flow rate. This really limits the flow for your closed loop.

I would however like to state that IMO, the way you are planning is a flood waiting to happen.
If I had to do it this way from a filtration standpoint, I would go.
pump -->carbon-->bio pellet-->bead filter-->UV-->hang on skimmer

 

[DaveMorris]

I have always chosen to do a closed loop for the simple fact that I absolutely hate hardware in my tank. I hate the look of powerheads, even slim ones like an MP40. I will be running two powerheads soon in my 130g but that is only because extenuating circumstances prevented me from doing a closed loop on this build. On my 300g that I had previously, you could not see the outputs of my closed loop because they were hidden in the rocks. I had awesome flow in the tank and no ugly hardware or wires. With today's more efficient pumps it can be done for very near the same power consumption as a few powerheads.

 

[cu455]

It's not really a closed loop however I'm curious to see how you make this work. Here are the problems I see.

I don't see a way to incorporate a skimmer unless it is last and situated above the tank. What skimmer are you planning?
Typically, you need to run bio pellets at a low flow rate. This really limits the flow for your closed loop.

I would however like to state that IMO, the way you are planning is a flood waiting to happen.
If I had to do it this way from a filtration standpoint, I would go.
pump -->carbon-->bio pellet-->bead filter-->UV-->hang on skimmer

I guess my diagram wasn't the best. It will be manifolded off so I can control the flow to each piece of equipment. The skimmer will be raised off the ground a little and hooked up to a bulkhead which goes into the pond. The skimmer is going to be raised but it will not be higher then the pond. I am using a pearls of paradise 8ft tank. Everything else will release the water into the pond with over the top setups pvc spray bars.

It is the same thing as running a closed loop for flow but you just have it run through your equipment first.

 

[gcarroll]

I guess my diagram wasn't the best. It will be manifolded off so I can control the flow to each piece of equipment. The skimmer will be raised off the ground a little and hooked up to a bulkhead which goes into the pond. The skimmer is going to be raised but it will not be higher then the pond. I am using a pearls of paradise 8ft tank. Everything else will release the water into the pond with over the top setups pvc spray bars.

It is the same thing as running a closed loop for flow but you just have it run through your equipment first.

I'm confused at the term pond. Is the pond what we refer to as a sump? If the skimmer is not raised above the tank, how does the water get to the tank?

 

[gcarroll]

This thread has intrigued me to the point that I have decided to add a closed loop to my new tank build. I just want to see just how efficient I can make it.

 

[143MPCo]

Would love to see the details once you have everything together.

 

[gcarroll]

My goal it to build the closed loop to utilize the advantages of the pump I choose. I want to get enough flow as to not need to add any other supplemental flow. I want it to be easy to maintain as well as reliable so expect to see a quality pump utilized! I haven't done a closed loop in 12 years but I have thought long and hard and think what I got cookin will achieve my goals.

 

[143MPCo]

My goal it to build the closed loop to utilize the advantages of the pump I choose. I want to get enough flow as to not need to add any other supplemental flow. I want it to be easy to maintain as well as reliable so expect to see a quality pump utilized! I haven't done a closed loop in 12 years but I have thought long and hard and think what I got cookin will achieve my goals.

Good luck sir, and please post back your findings look forward to seeing what you come up with.