Are elevated nutrients a problem, or not?

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I keep my phosphates at 0.00. Hanna checker can't even detect it. And nitrates at 5ppm, I've found favia,leptastrea,favites absolutely hate phosphate, the rest of my corals also enjoy the low levels

Do you feed particulate foods for the corals?

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

Do you feed particulate foods for the corals?

Yep! Only way it works with phosphates at zero, my tank is 120 gallons and (for now, hopefully not for much longer) fishless. LPS dominant system, I feed 4 cubes of Hikari coral gumbo nightly, I have my refeugium running to keep the phosphates low

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

Do you feed particulate foods for the corals?

The feeding response in last night's feeding

 

[jda]

I found a Hach Total P test kit - I thought that I had used it all up. It was expired by a few months, but it showed total P of about .08 in my tank with a po4 level of 2 ppb, or .004 ppm. Again, i would venture to guess that anybody with even very low po4 levels are not limited on phosphorous for corals unless you are not feeding fish. You still might be limited if you are looking to poison dinos, or the like.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yep! Only way it works with phosphates at zero, my tank is 120 gallons and (for now, hopefully not for much longer) fishless. LPS dominant system, I feed 4 cubes of Hikari coral gumbo nightly, I have my refeugium running to keep the phosphates low

OK, then IMO, that's a critical thing to mention when discussing undetectable phosphate and successful growth of corals.

 

[Projects with Sam]

Yes, corals adapt specifically to high phosphate concentrations and may have difficulties to adapt to lower concentrations, especially Acropora.

If there is a threshold I would think it is around 0.1 ppm. I would expect that lowering phosphate by half from 0.4 to 0.2 ppm is not as problematic as lowering it from 0.1 ppm to 0.05 ppm.

What might also be the case is that it is only an adaptation process and after a few days the corals open up again.

I was running phosphates over 1ppm since May and recently dropped it to around .5 and have not noticed much difference in my corals. I am still waiting to see if there are any changes. The frozen food I make for my fish has a ton of particulate food that is broadcast as they eat.

 

[Superlightman]

I keep my phosphates at 0.00. Hanna checker can't even detect it. And nitrates at 5ppm, I've found favia,leptastrea,favites absolutely hate phosphate, the rest of my corals also enjoy the low levels

Wich method you use?

 

[Pod_01]

The feeding response in last night's feeding

How long did you have those in the zero PO4 environment for?

Mine did this when I experimented with zero PO4:

Few fish and some feeding was done. Not fun to look at.


Same coral with PO4 in the 0.1 range:

Another one:

Lot more fish and lot more feeding as well.

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

Wich method you use?

Refeugium and Daily filter sock changes

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

How long did you have those in the zero PO4 environment for?

Mine did this when I experimented with zero PO4:

Few fish and some feeding was done. Not fun to look at.


Same coral with PO4 in the 0.1 range:

Another one:

Lot more fish and lot more feeding as well.

The Lobo? For about 1 1/2 months, I do nightly feedings so he's getting the nutrients he needs

Lobo tonight

Right before the lights turn off

 

[Thales]

My phophaste is currently 1.11

 

[Pod_01]

The Lobo? For about 1 1/2 months, I do nightly feedings so he's getting the nutrients he needs

Lobo tonight

Right before the lights turn off

From my experience Favia can take a long time to show starvation. If they start to be deflated and the mouth are gaping open you should increase the feeding . From my experience Fauna Marin coral dust works well but reef roids should work as well.

The reason I bring this up is that when I experimented with zero PO4 the Favias looked ok for long time (3-5 months) and suddenly they did not.
In your case with newish looking tank the PO4 might be getting absorbed by the substrate / rock or there might not be enough P/ PO4.
Corals do require P/PO4 either from fish poop/ feeding or sometimes from the water.

 

[Reefkeepers Archive]

From my experience Favia can take a long time to show starvation. If they start to be deflated and the mouth are gaping open you should increase the feeding . From my experience Fauna Marin coral dust works well but reef roids should work as well.

The reason I bring this up is that when I experimented with zero PO4 the Favias looked ok for long time (3-5 months) and suddenly they did not.
In your case with newish looking tank the PO4 might be getting absorbed by the substrate / rock or there might not be enough P/ PO4.
Corals do require P/PO4 either from fish poop/ feeding or sometimes from the water.

Yep, looks newish because the lights are positioned behind the rockwork which keeps that side shaped, for the LPS. I do feed reef-roids every 1-2 weeks, I feed nightly 4 cubes of particulate-frozen meaty foods to provide said nutrients, and by the frequency and amount of waste my corals produce its pretty clear that they're getting enough nutrients. Currently I actually don't have favia as I killed the last one, but I am looking to get one soon

 

[Miami Reef]

My phophaste is currently 1.11

Why so high again? I thought you had a good, easy method to keep them lower (lanthanum). Lazy? Lol

 

[Thales]

Why so high again? I thought you had a good, easy method to keep them lower (lanthanum). Lazy? Lol

I cut dosing partially to see if it would make a difference. No difference!

 

[Reef By Steele Verified Sponsor]

I would say since the hobby‘s embraces the use of Cheato and other algae growth to reduce nitrate concentration, then the “algae growth vs coral growth“ concern is generally not, as far as macro algae exudates go, interfering with coral growth.

I think the discussion of algae growth hindering or killing corals in this discussion isn’t about the growth of algae causing a detrimental effect, but that algae growth in the DT can smother, shade, or otherwise impact the corals health, while growing a macro algae in a refugium or other place does not have the same results as it doesn’t block the corals light source.

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

This was a good read. I have the two different stories here, but I am fairly certain I am causing or have caused the issue.

Before the tang police come, I am consolidating both of these tanks into a 375G (display) new peninsula in about 2 months.

Both tanks run roughly the same: dkh 8.4, ca 440, mg 1450, 79 degrees and 35 sal.

Tank 1 (larger tank Max s500):
- Tank has been pretty stable for a while now. In the past:
Chaeto would go to this tank to die.
- Had GHA issues on and off for ages. Got a handle on a few things, but the tides swung hard the other way.
- Struggled FOREVER to get nutrients detectable, then a while more to be detectable outside of margin of error. Then I accidentally left my roller mat unplugged for a month while I was out of town (with lots of husbandry enhancement's in play from knowledge gained over time) and now the tank is sitting around .15 and 15-20. Not sure if nutrients, MS or what, but tank is looking good. Interestingly in the rear return chamber, since the lift in nutrients I am noticing more aiptasia in spots where I don't have natural predators.
- No water changes in nearly 3 months, doing MS. Turf scrubber light on 12 hours a day. I am dosing NO3 (20ml) everyday.
- Yellow, Powder Blue, Fox, Purple and clowns in the tank. Auto feed 4 times a day with two rotations and frozen at night. Tons of CUC.

Reefer 250 - No MS only water changes on this tank
- This tank is a little concerning to me right now.
- Historical nutrients have been higher in this tank around .15-.20 / 20+
- SPS dom
- 1 gallon a day AWC = about 10% a week
- Hippo, fox, scopus, lawn mower and 2 clowns
- Auto feeder was 4 times a day (2 rotations, less coming out then big tank though) and frozen at night.
- Algae scrubber light is on 18 hours a day produces lots of algae.
- While I was out of town my AWC system pooped the bed. Nutrients spiked .35 and around 50 no3. Not sure how long it was that high. I lost 7 coral and 3 montis and a couple millies lost their color.
- I did a series of large water changes over 5 days. Nutrients went back to .20 / 20-25.
- Test last Sat and I noticed an uptick on nutrients. So I did two things to start to bring this tank's nutrients down.
- Doubled my awc to 2 gallons a day and started Nopox (4 ml) a day.
- Yesterday I tested nutrients and HOLY POOP BATMAN - .81 and >100. I know. So I did these tests 4 times. All virtually exactly the same!
- I am about to test again when the family gets up. BUT -
- I hope I didn't cause any further issues, I harvested 50% of the algae from my scrubber, it was thick like a Kardashian, much like a Kardashian, all at the bottom and the average on the sides.
- I changed about 60% of the water. I'd like to do 50-75% water changes a few days in a row.
- I have increased my photo period for my scrubber to 23 hours a day.
- I think this recent spike has the coralline algae on my rock dying off, I can start to see white spots in many places. 90% of the rocks in this tank are completely covered in coralline. To explain the level of nutrients, something in the tank broke a coral yesterday. In a matter of 24 hours, the tip is a really dark color. I've not seen it happen this quickly before.

I would say both systems have about the same "fish load". But, one tank is half the size of the other. Now, is the load proper on the smaller and under on the larger, my gut tells me no/yes. I think you could have the fish count in the smaller system, but these guys are growing and eating a poop ton. The frozen food I feed them is gone in 5-6 minutes in both tanks.

I say all this that - I am thinking that in a smaller tank with a heavier bioload, small daily water changes are not getting the job done. Weekly more aggressive water changes may be required. I have had this tank on AWC for about 6-8 months now and I do feel that this is a major contributor. It's like the tank is riding the razor's nutrient edge. I am not getting enough out, and just a little hiccup pushes the nutrients into the danger zone. About to go in the dragon's lair (tank in question is in bedroom - wife and youngest sleeping in bed, wish me luck.)

Pictures of both tanks (Max first):

 

[GARRIGA]

Plans are to feed fish heavy during the day, feed corals heavy at night and seek to bottom out all nutrients such as ammonia, nitrite, nitrates and phosphates along with CUC to solve algae and maintain otherwise proper levels of elements. No clue if this will work but I know me and no way I’m skating narrow bands of under 20ppm and 0.03 to 0.05 ppm.

End of day. Ultimate plan is keep that I can keep based on my life requirements as I want to enjoy the outdoors, go travel and love fishing. Not going to be a slave to my tank. Not saying that’s wrong. Each can decide their best plan but trying to fit a square peg in a round hole never been me.

Curious if those maintaining near bottom out levels feed their corals at night so that they get the nutrients they require vs assuming gauging nitrates gives a proper picture since coral symbiotic algae seem to prefer ammonium just like other plant like organisms and might take their phosphates from particulates as Tropic Marin is now marketing. Latter just makes sense and I’m not a scientist therefore always rely on what makes overall logical sense vs imperial studies for which often conflicting views exist.

Keep it simple might mean less clicks on instagram but also means likely less stress in the real world. Plus what’s wrong with mushrooms

 

[WhatCouldGoWrong71]

This was a good read. I have the two different stories here, but I am fairly certain I am causing or have caused the issue.

Before the tang police come, I am consolidating both of these tanks into a 375G (display) new peninsula in about 2 months.

Both tanks run roughly the same: dkh 8.4, ca 440, mg 1450, 79 degrees and 35 sal.

Tank 1 (larger tank Max s500):
- Tank has been pretty stable for a while now. In the past:
Chaeto would go to this tank to die.
- Had GHA issues on and off for ages. Got a handle on a few things, but the tides swung hard the other way.
- Struggled FOREVER to get nutrients detectable, then a while more to be detectable outside of margin of error. Then I accidentally left my roller mat unplugged for a month while I was out of town (with lots of husbandry enhancement's in play from knowledge gained over time) and now the tank is sitting around .15 and 15-20. Not sure if nutrients, MS or what, but tank is looking good. Interestingly in the rear return chamber, since the lift in nutrients I am noticing more aiptasia in spots where I don't have natural predators.
- No water changes in nearly 3 months, doing MS. Turf scrubber light on 12 hours a day. I am dosing NO3 (20ml) everyday.
- Yellow, Powder Blue, Fox, Purple and clowns in the tank. Auto feed 4 times a day with two rotations and frozen at night. Tons of CUC.

Reefer 250 - No MS only water changes on this tank
- This tank is a little concerning to me right now.
- Historical nutrients have been higher in this tank around .15-.20 / 20+
- SPS dom
- 1 gallon a day AWC = about 10% a week
- Hippo, fox, scopus, lawn mower and 2 clowns
- Auto feeder was 4 times a day (2 rotations, less coming out then big tank though) and frozen at night.
- Algae scrubber light is on 18 hours a day produces lots of algae.
- While I was out of town my AWC system pooped the bed. Nutrients spiked .35 and around 50 no3. Not sure how long it was that high. I lost 7 coral and 3 montis and a couple millies lost their color.
- I did a series of large water changes over 5 days. Nutrients went back to .20 / 20-25.
- Test last Sat and I noticed an uptick on nutrients. So I did two things to start to bring this tank's nutrients down.
- Doubled my awc to 2 gallons a day and started Nopox (4 ml) a day.
- Yesterday I tested nutrients and HOLY POOP BATMAN - .81 and >100. I know. So I did these tests 4 times. All virtually exactly the same!
- I am about to test again when the family gets up. BUT -
- I hope I didn't cause any further issues, I harvested 50% of the algae from my scrubber, it was thick like a Kardashian, much like a Kardashian, all at the bottom and the average on the sides.
- I changed about 60% of the water. I'd like to do 50-75% water changes a few days in a row.
- I have increased my photo period for my scrubber to 23 hours a day.
- I think this recent spike has the coralline algae on my rock dying off, I can start to see white spots in many places. 90% of the rocks in this tank are completely covered in coralline. To explain the level of nutrients, something in the tank broke a coral yesterday. In a matter of 24 hours, the tip is a really dark color. I've not seen it happen this quickly before.

I would say both systems have about the same "fish load". But, one tank is half the size of the other. Now, is the load proper on the smaller and under on the larger, my gut tells me no/yes. I think you could have the fish count in the smaller system, but these guys are growing and eating a poop ton. The frozen food I feed them is gone in 5-6 minutes in both tanks.

I say all this that - I am thinking that in a smaller tank with a heavier bioload, small daily water changes are not getting the job done. Weekly more aggressive water changes may be required. I have had this tank on AWC for about 6-8 months now and I do feel that this is a major contributor. It's like the tank is riding the razor's nutrient edge. I am not getting enough out, and just a little hiccup pushes the nutrients into the danger zone. About to go in the dragon's lair (tank in question is in bedroom - wife and youngest sleeping in bed, wish me luck.)

Pictures of both tanks (Max first):

Off to mix more water…

 

[Garf]

Off to mix more water…

For salifert nitrate you should be looking from the top, not the side.

Edit, or dividing the result by 10