Are LED lights REALLY all that different ....

[cvrle1]

I would say there is much much much bigger difference between LED fixture that uses 0.5W LEDs vs LED fixture that uses 3W LEDs, than there is between super high end fixture and CBB that have same wattage LEDs

If you compare 0.5W LED output (PAR/PUR) it will be so much lower than even a black box that uses 3W LEDs. If you compare something high end like Radion or AI fixture output to a Viparspectra unit, their PAR will be about the same. Sure, VS may have more disco ball effect and wont have WiFI, 6 channels of control and so on, but they will grow corals just the same.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Not really sure of your point. Surely all the LED fixture manufacturers know this and have equal access to the 'better' diodes. OK, maybe the budget fixtures make 'inferior' choices, but does that really translate into differential performance. I suppose everyone's got there opinion on whether it does or not. No data though.

I mainly just posted that link for those that are unaware that not all LEDs are created equal - that they are grouped together quality wise in binns - the cost varies due to this - & may have an impact on effectiveness & fixture quality.

 

[oreo54]

I would say there is much much much bigger difference between LED fixture that uses 0.5W LEDs vs LED fixture that uses 3W LEDs, than there is between super high end fixture and CBB that have same wattage LEDs

If you compare 0.5W LED output (PAR/PUR) it will be so much lower than even a black box that uses 3W LEDs. If you compare something high end like Radion or AI fixture output to a Viparspectra unit, their PAR will be about the same. Sure, VS may have more disco ball effect and wont have WiFI, 6 channels of control and so on, but they will grow corals just the same.

Actually.. Much of that is optics...
a large panel such as this w/ 90 degree reflectors is capable a lot of PAR. Maybe not what they claim but it's just a minor example of ONE part of the equation..

BTW IF their MTBF is correct this light is more on the line of "disposable"

relassy

NOTE the above is NOT 300W.. 300W is a model number..More on the line of 100W.

Those bb's (rumor has it they finally upgraded their chips to more current SMD styles) w "3W class" emitters run at like
3.5V @ 550mA, technically about 1.92W. With a guesstimated watt efficiency of around 50Lumens/watt (96 lumens per diode)
That would mean current SMD .5W run close to spec (no guarantee )and currently 100Lumens /watt.. (50 lumens per diode) so it only takes 2 .5W diodes = 1 3W diode.

Of course the trick is most .5W diodes are lensed at 120 degrees while most common 3w diodes are lensed 90 or smaller..thus concentrating their photons isto a more.. err.. flashlight form..

Obviously newer, more efficient 3W class or diodes ran "harder" shift the equation in their favor.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Is there innovation in some premium LEDs luminaires? Yes, some companies are incorporating wide spectrum LEDs (far red/infrared, for example) into their products There is some question if this IR radiation is actually beneficial to all zoox clades - from a strictly photosynthetic view point, it is, since this radiation is absorbed by the Reaction Centers of Photosystem I. However, it is possible that radiation from Photosystem II can 'spill-over' (AKA state transition) to PSI in at least some cases. So, effects of broader spectrum are an unknown.
As for binning If a LED's spectral characteristics fall outside of the QC specs, it is binned along with others with similar ones. I've used an Ocean Optics' spectrometer and looked at hundreds of LEDs used in aquarium LEDs, and have never seen one that varied more than a nanometer or two (+/-) from the standard peaks (450nm for instance.) I can't say the same for some Individual LEDs I've ordered from online vendors. Some are so far out of the advertised peaks that I wondered if the wrong ones were picked for shipping. In some other cases, the primary peak matched that advertised, but there was a secondary (and unadvertised) shoulder that made the output appear much different than one would expect.
As for integrating spheres, BuildMyLED (now Fluence Bioengineering) showed me a huge sphere (about 6' diameter if memory serves) in their lab. They got out of the aquarium market when the marijuana and indoor farming market took off. Would like to see them get back into the reef market. One of the founders of BML (Nick) had a nice little reef in his office. I think Orphek has some useful numbers on their website.
Fluence Bioengineering has a proprietary (probably patented) heat sink machined out of an aluminum block thus negating the need for cooling fans on their large 'indistrial' units. Haven't seen anything similar on other luminaires.

 

[ca1ore]

Dunno, just doesn’t seem like adding a few extra colors is earth shattering innovation .... give me a LED llght that replicates what I see at 10’ on a Florida reef and I’m sold. Or even something that dims smoothly without color shifting to full black.

 

[oreo54]

Dunno, just doesn’t seem like adding a few extra colors is earth shattering innovation .... give me a LED llght that replicates what I see at 10’ on a Florida reef and I’m sold. Or even something that dims smoothly without color shifting to full black.

first, natural sunlight color shifts..
second, get this..

Marine Blue (CSL-SMBB0000)

KYOCERA Develops World's First Full-Spectrum LED Aquarium Lighting; Innovative technology mimics sunlight at specific underwater depths; designed to optimize growth of corals and marine plants | News Releases | KYOCERA

Kyocera announced that the company developed the world’s first full-spectrum LED lighting for aquariums.

global.kyocera.com

 

[fermentedhiker]

Is there innovation in some premium LEDs luminaires? Yes, some companies are incorporating wide spectrum LEDs (far red/infrared, for example) into their products There is some question if this IR radiation is actually beneficial to all zoox clades - from a strictly photosynthetic view point, it is, since this radiation is absorbed by the Reaction Centers of Photosystem I. However, it is possible that radiation from Photosystem II can 'spill-over' (AKA state transition) to PSI in at least some cases. So, effects of broader spectrum are an unknown.
As for binning If a LED's spectral characteristics fall outside of the QC specs, it is binned along with others with similar ones. I've used an Ocean Optics' spectrometer and looked at hundreds of LEDs used in aquarium LEDs, and have never seen one that varied more than a nanometer or two (+/-) from the standard peaks (450nm for instance.) I can't say the same for some Individual LEDs I've ordered from online vendors. Some are so far out of the advertised peaks that I wondered if the wrong ones were picked for shipping. In some other cases, the primary peak matched that advertised, but there was a secondary (and unadvertised) shoulder that made the output appear much different than one would expect.
As for integrating spheres, BuildMyLED (now Fluence Bioengineering) showed me a huge sphere (about 6' diameter if memory serves) in their lab. They got out of the aquarium market when the marijuana and indoor farming market took off. Would like to see them get back into the reef market. One of the founders of BML (Nick) had a nice little reef in his office. I think Orphek has some useful numbers on their website.
Fluence Bioengineering has a proprietary (probably patented) heat sink machined out of an aluminum block thus negating the need for cooling fans on their large 'indistrial' units. Haven't seen anything similar on other luminaires.

I had actually looked at picking up one their current fixtures(Fluence) to use as the "white" channel on my most recent setup and then get light bars from Orphek or RB in the Blue and Violet ranges and through experimenting vary the output to get the look and par combo I liked. Ended up getting some used Radions for a good price. Still wonder how it would've worked.

 

[Dana Riddle]

I had actually looked at picking up one their current fixtures(Fluence) to use as the "white" channel on my most recent setup and then get light bars from Orphek or RB in the Blue and Violet ranges and through experimenting vary the output to get the look and par combo I liked. Ended up getting some used Radions for a good price. Still wonder how it would've worked.

I'll have to look at the Fluence website. Haven't talked to Nick in a few months now. I should give him a call.

 

[fermentedhiker]

I'll have to look at the Fluence website. Haven't talked to Nick in a few months now. I should give him a call.

I think it was the Ray series in the physiospec greenhouse spectrum I was looking at at the time.

 

[RMS18]

I didn't get into this hobby to save money lol. I'll stick to my dimable T5's, set it and forget it, proven, better spread / coverage. In addition more and more are people mixing LEDs with T5's.

 

[oreo54]

I'll have to look at the Fluence website. Haven't talked to Nick in a few months now. I should give him a call.

Around 2018 there was interest in some models for freshwater use.
Inexplicably that use was literally discouraged by Fluence rep for some reason beyond my understanding. Even asked b4 they pulled their forum support thread. Never got an answer.
The only candidate was the greenhouse model though on other was plant use-able but prob not easily accepted on aesthetics (too warm).

our PhysioSpec Greenhouse is approximately 5000 Kelvin.

 

[oreo54]

Around 2018 there was interest in some models for freshwater use.
Inexplicably that use was literally discouraged by Fluence rep for some reason beyond my understanding. Even asked b4 they pulled their forum support thread. Never got an answer.
The only candidate was the greenhouse model though with one other plant use-able but prob not easily accepted on aesthetics (too warm).

Plotted for SPECTRA.. sub 80 CRI @ daylight..91 @D50

 

[Dana Riddle]

Plotted for SPECTRA.. sub 80 CRI @ daylight..91 @D50

Fluence is doing some groundbreaking work. They have walk-in environmental chambers (controlled temp, humidity, CO2, light intensity/spectrum, etc.) and work with universities to look at how light affects brix, fruit color, taste, and so on. I didn't see any aquatic work during the last visit, so can't comment about that other than if they didn't recommend a light for a certain application, they likely have a good reason for doing so.

 

[oreo54]

Fluence is doing some groundbreaking work. They have walk-in environmental chambers (controlled temp, humidity, CO2, light intensity/spectrum, etc.) and work with universities to look at how light affects brix, fruit color, taste, and so on. I didn't see any aquatic work during the last visit, so can't comment about that other than if they didn't recommend a light for a certain application, they likely have a good reason for doing so.

I have heard amazing things about Fluence fixtures, multiple people in my fish club have them, and they love them

Well it doesn't seem to be spectrum..

Does this make any sense?

www.plantedtank.net

It's not a big issue.. more of a curiosity..and was readily ignored..

 

[ca1ore]

first, natural sunlight color shifts..

Not like my radions it doesn’t !

second, get this..

Marine Blue (CSL-SMBB0000)

KYOCERA Develops World's First Full-Spectrum LED Aquarium Lighting; Innovative technology mimics sunlight at specific underwater depths; designed to optimize growth of corals and marine plants | News Releases | KYOCERA

Kyocera announced that the company developed the world’s first full-spectrum LED lighting for aquariums.

global.kyocera.com

Yeah, I had seen that announcement. Wonder how they actually look in person. That kind of hyperbole always rather turns me off though.

 

[ca1ore]

One thing I would personally like to see (that I would consider innovative) is a manufacturer build a light that uses a dual sided LED array that also shines up into a MH style reflector. Comment was made earlier about needing many more fixtures than the manufacturers say ...very much my experience.

 

[Cory]

The main reason i got a kessil ap700 was because it had dimming features, moonlighting, shimmer and blended the leds so it doesn't look like a rainbow.

I didnt think its leds were any different than a black box besides being tiny.

 

[GoGo98102]

Is there innovation in some premium LEDs luminaires? Yes, some companies are incorporating wide spectrum LEDs (far red/infrared, for example) into their products There is some question if this IR radiation is actually beneficial to all zoox clades - from a strictly photosynthetic view point, it is, since this radiation is absorbed by the Reaction Centers of Photosystem I. However, it is possible that radiation from Photosystem II can 'spill-over' (AKA state transition) to PSI in at least some cases. So, effects of broader spectrum are an unknown.
As for binning If a LED's spectral characteristics fall outside of the QC specs, it is binned along with others with similar ones. I've used an Ocean Optics' spectrometer and looked at hundreds of LEDs used in aquarium LEDs, and have never seen one that varied more than a nanometer or two (+/-) from the standard peaks (450nm for instance.) I can't say the same for some Individual LEDs I've ordered from online vendors. Some are so far out of the advertised peaks that I wondered if the wrong ones were picked for shipping. In some other cases, the primary peak matched that advertised, but there was a secondary (and unadvertised) shoulder that made the output appear much different than one would expect.
As for integrating spheres, BuildMyLED (now Fluence Bioengineering) showed me a huge sphere (about 6' diameter if memory serves) in their lab. They got out of the aquarium market when the marijuana and indoor farming market took off. Would like to see them get back into the reef market. One of the founders of BML (Nick) had a nice little reef in his office. I think Orphek has some useful numbers on their website.
Fluence Bioengineering has a proprietary (probably patented) heat sink machined out of an aluminum block thus negating the need for cooling fans on their large 'indistrial' units. Haven't seen anything similar on other luminaires.

I was honestly just thinking, “Hmm I would love to see a post from Dana...” then bang! Here you are. Thank you!

 

[BryanD]

Replaced T5 4-bulb system that I had to replace the bulbs at least once a year with some mid-range (pricewise) LED's, pretty drastic drop in electric bill (which there was no other reason for), heat produced was decreased, get to more easily play around with color spectrum, and 2 1/2 years later haven't had to replace anything and the tanks inhabitants look awesome. They all have some sort of "weather" effect that is fun to play around with once in awhile. I'll never go back to bulbs, by the end of this year I'll have broke even cost-wise with not having to buy new bulbs.

 

[drblakjak55]

Good thread. Important topic with well thought out answers from DYI in Alaska to just buy the best.
over my 90 have a Maxspect Razor 120. and a Current Orbit Pro over the front where the clams are 30 inches away. All growing slowly. Will check PAR some day. Over the 29 biocube I cut out the hood and sit a Wills Aquarium 165W box on top. Very Very bright, dimmable . Using power level 2 of 10. UL listed so shouldn’t kill anyone. Will get two more for the big tank when the Razor dies. Have fun