Are Natural Systems Smart

[ZaneTer]

Theological debates have little to no place on Reef2Reef. If there is a divine creator then he/she/it is a gigantic butt hole. Uncaring and uninvolved.

Or with equal probability there is no creator. We are alone........but also completely free from its influence. Man created gods to explain what we couldn’t at the time to calm our fears.

Have you ever seen anything other than humans worship?

 

[Subsea]

This video is my oldest tank from 5 years ago. The softball size GSP covers complete back wall today.

 

[Subsea]

Theological debates have little to no place on Reef2Reef. If there is a divine creator then he/she/it is a gigantic butt hole. Uncaring and uninvolved.

Or with equal probability there is no creator. We are alone........but also completely free from its influence. Man created gods to explain what we couldn’t at the time to calm our fears.

Have you ever seen anything other than humans worship?

Sorry for your anger.
You are correct, the God debate is not for Reef discussion forum. The Lounge would be a more appropriate forum.

 

[ZaneTer]

Don’t worry I am not angry.

That cucumber is absolutely gorgeous. I used to have two back when I had a sand bed.

 

[Subsea]

While I can show a lot of pictures of displays and growout tanks, I have other threads with those items. It was my thought to show the science of the coral holobiont. As a lover of nature, I see the beauty in how bacteria assimilate nutrients and supply food webs that feed coral, filter feeders and fish. When coral can selectively supply growth hormones to grow only the specific bacteria for them to harvest, I call that “special”.

 

[ZaneTer]

I am very curious about the mechanism by which the coral can recognize which hormone is responsible for providing the most bacteria.

I suspect it may be some form of feedback loop. The coral outputs a baseline of 1mg of hormones A,B,C and D. The coral gets back via bacteria 0.5mg of A but nothing of B,C or D. I think this could stimulate the coral to now produce 2mg of A and 1mg of B,C and D.

Just an idea.

 

[Subsea]

Don’t worry I am not angry.

That cucumber is absolutely gorgeous. I used to have two back when I had a sand bed.

A friend did a nice job on the video. I had that sea apple for five years. Due to complications, I lost him. I knew so little then, but I used natural systems which assisted with food webs. Now after much reading and hands on, I have embraced cryptic sponges as the third leg of biofiltration in my reef tank:
bacteria, algae and sponges.

 

[ZaneTer]

Sponge success for me has varied greatly over time. I will start trying sodium metasilicate but I really am clutching at straws. Could you offer any advice?

 

[Subsea]

I am very curious about the mechanism by which the coral can recognize which hormone is responsible for providing the most bacteria.

I suspect it may be some form of feedback loop. The coral outputs a baseline of 1mg of hormones A,B,C and D. The coral gets back via bacteria 0.5mg of A but nothing of B,C or D. I think this could stimulate the coral to now produce 2mg of A and 1mg of B,C and D.

Just an idea.

It’s logical. I am weak on that specific process. My friend Timfish is my guru on that point, I will try to get a link. I do know that the experiment was conducted in a labaratory setting. Bacteria populations were monitored with coral selectively harvesting only one bacteria of several. I assume by size. With respect to growth hormone for that specific bacteria, it makes sense to me that coral now has desirable bacteria dna and can specialize growth hormone from that input. I am in awe with the micro details required to make that happen.

 

[Subsea]

Sponge success for me has varied greatly over time. I will start trying sodium metasilicate but I really am clutching at straws. Could you offer any advice?

I have not had stellar results with decorative sponges. Because of high nutrients in system, I brush off growth with a soft tooth brush weekly.

With respect to cryptic sponges, I am very pleased after turning out the lights on 25 year old mud/macro refugium 10 months ago.

About three months ago, I started to dose silicate concentrate for the sponges. When concentrate entered water, it immediately crystallized. All of my systems are saturated with silicates because it comes up with my ground water with a TDS at 1000ppm. As things have turned out, my well at 950’ is in the Trinity Aquifier which is under the Edwards Plateau, which used to be an inland sea. You guessed it, the ocean bottom was full of silicates.

 

[Subsea]

I can repeat what Steve Three wrote in his book on cryptic zone filtration: macro algae gives off DOC which is food for cryptic sponges, cryptic sponges give off Marine Snow and DIC which is food for corals. It’s a food web that feeds itself: algae, sponges, coral.

 

[ZaneTer]

That is stunning!! I believe I may just turn off my lights in my sump

I have no silicates in my system which I suspect and hope has been the reason for my recent poor success keeping sponges.

 

[Subsea]

That is stunning!! I believe I may just turn off my lights in my sump

I have no silicates in my system which I suspect and hope has been the reason for my recent poor success keeping sponges.

Many people can grow cryptic sponges in a sump. Nothing fancy required, they will attach to glass. To maximize surface area for sponge collinization, I suggest stacking eggcrate perpendicular to flow path.

 

[Punchanello]

You lost me at Intelligent Design.

 

[Subsea]

You lost me at Intelligent Design.

Considering the complexity of the coral holobiont, the human body and the Boson particle, I say random evolution did not make this perfection. If you are more comfortable with a “higher power” than “Intelligent Design” latch on to it. For certain, it is simplistic to say, that because there was 5 billion years, random selection evolution could work it out. I for one, say “I did not come from primeval slime”. I choose to claim a Creator.

http://www.intelligentdesign.org/


See what scientist say:

Definition of Intelligent Design
What is intelligent design?
Intelligent design refers to a scientific research program as well as a community of scientists, philosophers and other scholars who seek evidence of design in nature. The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection. Through the study and analysis of a system's components, a design theorist is able to determine whether various natural structures are the product of chance, natural law, intelligent design, or some combination thereof. Such research is conducted by observing the types of information produced when intelligent agents act. Scientists then seek to find objects which have those same types of informational properties which we commonly know come from intelligence. Intelligent design has applied these scientific methods to detect design in irreducibly complex biological structures, the complex and specified information content in DNA, the life-sustaining physical architecture of the universe, and the geologically rapid origin of biological diversity in the fossil record during the Cambrian explosion approximately 530 million years ago.

 

[Subsea]

Back to the science of the coral holobiont.

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-micro-102215-095440?journalCode=micro

Abstract
[Corals are fundamental ecosystem engineers, creating large, intricate reefs that support diverse and abundant marine life. At the core of a healthy coral animal is a dynamic relationship with microorganisms, including a mutually beneficial symbiosis with photosynthetic dinoflagellates (Symbiodinium spp.) and enduring partnerships with an array of bacterial, archaeal, fungal, protistan, and viral associates, collectively termed the coral holobiont. The combined genomes of this coral holobiont form a coral hologenome, and genomic interactions within the hologenome ultimately define the coral phenotype. Here we integrate contemporary scientific knowledge regarding the ecological, host-specific, and environmental forces shaping the diversity, specificity, and distribution of microbial symbionts within the coral holobiont, explore physiological pathways that contribute to holobiont fitness, and describe potential mechanisms for holobiont homeostasis. Understanding the role of the microbiome in coral resilience, acclimation, and environmental adaptation is a new frontier in reef science that will require large-scale collaborative research efforts.]

 

[MSB123]

Back to the science of the coral holobiont.

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-micro-102215-095440?journalCode=micro

Abstract
[Corals are fundamental ecosystem engineers, creating large, intricate reefs that support diverse and abundant marine life. At the core of a healthy coral animal is a dynamic relationship with microorganisms, including a mutually beneficial symbiosis with photosynthetic dinoflagellates (Symbiodinium spp.) and enduring partnerships with an array of bacterial, archaeal, fungal, protistan, and viral associates, collectively termed the coral holobiont. The combined genomes of this coral holobiont form a coral hologenome, and genomic interactions within the hologenome ultimately define the coral phenotype. Here we integrate contemporary scientific knowledge regarding the ecological, host-specific, and environmental forces shaping the diversity, specificity, and distribution of microbial symbionts within the coral holobiont, explore physiological pathways that contribute to holobiont fitness, and describe potential mechanisms for holobiont homeostasis. Understanding the role of the microbiome in coral resilience, acclimation, and environmental adaptation is a new frontier in reef science that will require large-scale collaborative research efforts.]

Let’s move this to lounge #mods
Will you please be more clear? To me, this is a bunch of words on a screen, nothing anyone can make sense of. Mabye in your own words, will you restate what you just put down?

 

[MSB123]

And are you saying that because coral is alive, then that is proof of a god or a creator?

 

[Subsea]

And are you saying that because coral is alive, then that is proof of a god or a creator?

I am saying that coral is more than alive. No need to believe me, read the scientific peer reviewed article that I linked.

This scientific paper as well as numerous other scientific papers document that coral can influence both bacteria and algae populations to its benefit. I call that Intelligent. You call it what you want to call it. If you want to believe that “Random or Natural Selection” produced those results, that is your choice. I prefer to think that I was not an accident of “Random Selection”.

I did not evolve from the primeval slime of early earth. I claim a higher power, but that is me.

 

[Scott Campbell]

I am saying that coral is more than alive. No need to believe me, read the scientific peer reviewed article that I linked.

This scientific paper as well as numerous other scientific papers document that coral can influence both bacteria and algae populations to its benefit. I call that Intelligent. You call it what you want to call it. If you want to believe that “Random or Natural Selection” produced those results, that is your choice. I prefer to think that I was not an accident of “Random Selection”.

I did not evolve from the primeval slime of early earth. I claim a higher power, but that is me.

Flip a coin a million times and then look back at the pattern. In retrospect it would seem wildly improbable that such an exact sequence would happen by chance. And yet.....

99+% of life on earth has also gone extinct. I expect humans will as well. That argues more for "matter & energy allow random possibilities" rather than "the universe is intelligently designed to achieve a certain outcome".

I also actually think it is dang cool that we evolved from slime. But that is me.