Are quarantine tanks worth the effort?

[Slocke]

The wild ecology of diseases doesn't apply to captive marine systems. No marine organism should have an immune system reliably capable of tolerating rapid and repeated disease in a marine tank.

You are correct! The long term benefits of disease for an ecosystem would not be present in a tank. I think an argument could be made that a fully quarintined system will be far more susceptible to disease in the rare instance that a disease gets introduced.

I'm not arguing that proper quarantine isn't better than not. However I do think that anyone who improperly quarantines or doesn't quarantine everything (like if a disease got into to a system that has been quarantined for a long time) may be more likely to have a wipe out a tank than someone who doesn't quarantine at all. I also worry about coppers long term health effects.

Either way it's a complicated issue. And either way I'm buying my fish pre-quarantined or captive bred anyways for reasons I said earlier.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Evening all. I am sure I will get shot down here, but,… Are quarantine tanks worth the effort. In 20 years I have not bought a sick fish from my LFS. Just lucky? Yet others have sick fish in quarantine. Just makes me wonder. Any opinions on this?

It depends on your risk tolerance and the quality of fish that you can acquire. If you can acquire pre quarantined fish, or tank raised fish that have not been mixed in with wild caught fish, then forgoing quarantine is safer. If you are buying typical LFS fish, then quarantine is vital. A properly performed quarantine reduces the risk to your primary tank inhabitants, and it also protects the new fish to some degree. Do fish die during quarantine? Yes, but if the quarantine was done properly, they would have died anyway.

Here is our general quarantine protocol:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2024 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed, proactive quarantine process can effectively eliminate these...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

p.s. - I also have observational QT for invertebrates, 30 days holding for most, but up to 90 days if I'm trying to rule out coral pests.

 

[littlebigreef]

QT is only worth it after you have had a bad experience. I just went through AEFW. I wish I had a QT and spent the 3 month watching.
3 months of dipping and rearranging, I think this episode is over and not I have setup a QT. Now I have to use it.

Ditto, I’ve had too many issues with wild zoas bringing in bacterial and protozoan issues. I’ve got a fully cycled 33 gal long for QTing zoas before they go into my trough.

Tank also serves as an aiptasia farm for nudis so it’s a win-win.

 

[pulpfiction]

They are worth it...if one can be maintained. I found a quarantine tanks too challenging with my resources. I'm glad there are people who sell quarantined/pretreated fish, inverts, and coral. I wouldn't be as successful as I am now without them.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Never had a torture chamber for my fish.

You can make a QT tank look like anything you would like so thats completely up to you.

 

[MnFish1]

Evening all. I am sure I will get shot down here, but,… Are quarantine tanks worth the effort. In 20 years I have not bought a sick fish from my LFS. Just lucky? Yet others have sick fish in quarantine. Just makes me wonder. Any opinions on this?

First, you won't get shot down for asking a question. Second if you look at polls on this site - probably about 50% of people do 'QT'. Third, there are several definitions of 'QT'. There is QT with observation only and treat if needed, and multiple protocols for QT with various medications, copper, +/- praziquantel, etc etc etc. So the answer to your question depends on what method you're talking about.

I have not used a QT protocol personally, BUT - I always buy from an LFS that does, and I've also never had a problem.

That said, my opinion is that medicated quarantine if done correctly (with correct doses, and length) is the most common sense option to prevent illness in the new fish as well as the rest of your tank. With essentially zero risk to the fish.

 

[cmor1701d]

After an outbreak of Ich years ago I decided to always QT. I keep some rock rubble and a qt biowheel filter in my DT sump. When I get a new fish I set up the QT tank with some PVC parts for hiding, the rock rubble and the biowheel. After testing that all parameters in the QT tank are good I'll buy the fish, never more than 2.
They get acclimated to qt and then I start hyposalinity treatment in qt. After 30 days I raise the sg to match the DT. It takes about 40 days but I never had an outbreak of Ich again.

 

[sumtingbig]

35 years of saltwater and several years of owning a saltwater store i never QT. 8 boxes of fish a week never lost a fish (unless it was doa) nor did my customer's. My competitor coppered everything and had a 90% death rate after purchase. Always blame the water quality. Fresh water dip for ick and fungus yes. Copper damages the immune system, high salinity damages its only protection , slime coat. Number one killer in saltwater is stress and bad water quality. Things have become to technical and everyone thinks there a biologist. jmo and experience

 

[FreeEnergyReefer]

Evening all. I am sure I will get shot down here, but,… Are quarantine tanks worth the effort. In 20 years I have not bought a sick fish from my LFS. Just lucky? Yet others have sick fish in quarantine. Just makes me wonder. Any opinions on this?

Me I don't quarantine. My corals will thrive regardless if the fish do or not. But my feelings on the topic are indifferent. I love the fish too and more than anything I have to keep a clean healthy reef so I understand why many ppl quarantine. It only takes 1 time. But me I have yet to have a sick fish infect an entire system. Just a few years ago a Wyoming white got gill flukes and perished but the female out of the pair along with the other 10 fish in the tank were fine

 

[areefer01]

What's the longest living fish that was quarantined at an early age?

Really not applicable - every day a animal lives is +1. Again the question isn't if it is worth the effort or not it is how the system is designed and QT, isolation, or observation protocols are used properly. There is always a right tool for the job but when used incorrectly damage products or lead to failure.

 

[areefer01]

There is a reason there are no old fully quarantined tanks or fish. None that I have found in decades. For a fish to live out it's normal lifespan which could be 10-20 years in many fish, they need a fully functioning immune system.

Do you have any data to back up this claim? I know several hobbyist that have tanks with contiguous years over 20 years old in the same aquarium. To include their fish.

What you may be alluding to, and to which I also agree with, most hobbyist are not designing systems nor have the patience for long term care. This includes protocols for either the use of, or not use of, quarantine.

Besides you run a diatom filter a few times a year....come on.

 

[Singspot]

QT is necessary but NOT sufficient.

The first thing to commit to is being RESPONSIBLE FOR THE LIFE we bring. Fish compatibility, space in the tank, bacterias in the tank, flow, light, the stress in the tank, fish source/ LFS, water quality, water chemistry, husbandry, etc. all needs to be cared for.

 

[THESTRZA]

I think it can be dependent on your supplier and the number of fish you would potentially be exposing to new disease entering your tank.

If you have a small tank with fish that you are not extremely attached to, with a trusted supplier/LFS then in my opinion the QT has more room for error. If you are buying online and exposing high value or your babies to new disease then a QT is definitely a huge consideration. Not science based whatsoever - just perspective 1 and a half years in.

 

[Lunatic Fringe]

Think about how much money you have invested in your tank...then ask yourself how much money would I be out if something bad got introduced to my tank and I had to tear it down and start all over? Now granted I think this affects the coral guys more than the fish only guys, but an Ounce of Prevention is worth a Pound of Cure!

FWIW...I dont add jack to my main displays if it aint been in QT for about a month fish wise and about 2 months coral wise.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

My controversial opinion on this is that you should be as careful as possible but that quarantining everything leads to a more susceptible population. But then my education comes from ecology not medicine and we have always had big difference in opinion when it comes to disease.

I think I just fell in love.

 

[Paul B]

Besides you run a diatom filter a few times a year....come on.

I am not sure what running a diatom filter a few times a year has to do with anything, but if that is the secret, why doesn't everyone do that instead of going nuts every time they add a fish.

Yes. I have been asking for decades on this forum, Reef Central and 4 or 5 others and so far, I have not even found one old, fully quarantined or medicated tank where the fish are healthy and possibly spawning and dying of old age. No one here has one, do they? We are talking about a hobby that started in 1971 so a lot of tanks were started. Where are they?

I have posted quite a few times how stress shortens the lifespan of a fish and that proof was from Neurologists, not hobiests on a fish forum. I have shown how the telemeres in every cell on every living thing allow a creature to live out it's natural lifespan and how it shortens through medication and quarantine thus shortening it's lifespan. I just posted a thread on how that happens.

You can't get around that and it's science, not just the ramblings from an electrician.
Here is how you prove health:

I got this Watchman gobi as this baby.



I got another one and they stayed together constantly with a pistol shrimp



Their eggs are above them



They laid many eggs, as only healthy fish can do.



Got old and fat.




Here he is dying of old age 10 or 12 years later



That is the entire lifespan of a pair of simple Watchmans.

Also, only fish in the best health can spawn. All female fish fill with eggs if they are healthy.
Pregnant Ruby red.


Blue devil eggs in 1972, maybe the first salt water to spawn in a tank.



About 30 year old fireclown tending eggs


Annoying clown gobi with her eggs above her killing my acropora.



Spawning Mandarins



Healthy fish spawn "constantly" every couple of weeks for most fish.

I could go on but you get the picture.
Fully quarantined or medicated fish have a very hard time filling with eggs because they don't have a functioning immune system. It is simple and not very complicated. We make our fish sick not the wholesaler. It is our practices, our food, and our aquascape. These things done correctly will keep our fish living for their entire presumed lifespan.

It is not quarantine or medication that does that as they don't get medicated in the sea. But what the sea does provide is a stress free environment for the most part with the proper food containing the right gut bacteria.

Many people get the wrong idea about my method. I purposely don't medicate or quarantine to insure the long term health and lifespan of the fish, not the opposite. It is much easier to quarantine or medicate something than to get it healthy naturally.

We can keep a cancer patient alive for a long time in quarantine using drugs, but that is not really living

 

[reef_1]

I am not sure what running a diatom filter a few times a year has to do with anything, but if that is the secret, why doesn't everyone do that instead of going nuts every time they add a fish.

Yes. I have been asking for decades on this forum, Reef Central and 4 or 5 others and so far, I have not even found one old, fully quarantined or medicated tank where the fish are healthy and possibly spawning and dying of old age. No one here has one, do they? We are talking about a hobby that started in 1971 so a lot of tanks were started. Where are they?

I have posted quite a few times how stress shortens the lifespan of a fish and that proof was from Neurologists, not hobiests on a fish forum. I have shown how the telemeres in every cell on every living thing allow a creature to live out it's natural lifespan and how it shortens through medication and quarantine thus shortening it's lifespan. I just posted a thread on how that happens.

You can't get around that and it's science, not just the ramblings from an electrician.
Here is how you prove health:

I got this Watchman gobi as this baby.



I got another one and they stayed together constantly with a pistol shrimp



Their eggs are above them



They laid many eggs, as only healthy fish can do.



Got old and fat.




Here he is dying of old age 10 or 12 years later



That is the entire lifespan of a pair of simple Watchmans.

Also, only fish in the best health can spawn. All female fish fill with eggs if they are healthy.
Pregnant Ruby red.


Blue devil eggs in 1972, maybe the first salt water to spawn in a tank.



About 30 year old fireclown tending eggs


Annoying clown gobi with her eggs above her killing my acropora.



Spawning Mandarins



Healthy fish spawn "constantly" every couple of weeks for most fish.

I could go on but you get the picture.
Fully quarantined or medicated fish have a very hard time filling with eggs because they don't have a functioning immune system. It is simple and not very complicated. We make our fish sick not the wholesaler. It is our practices, our food, and our aquascape. These things done correctly will keep our fish living for their entire presumed lifespan.

It is not quarantine or medication that does that as they don't get medicated in the sea. But what the sea does provide is a stress free environment for the most part with the proper food containing the right gut bacteria.

Many people get the wrong idea about my method. I purposely don't medicate or quarantine to insure the long term health and lifespan of the fish, not the opposite. It is much easier to quarantine or medicate something than to get it healthy naturally.

We can keep a cancer patient alive for a long time in quarantine using drugs, but that is not really living

I have huge respect for your very long history in reefkeeping, however in the ~7 year old article I already linked, you sound quite enthusiastic about copper and you say for example I quote "I had hippo tangs live ten years, and, for many of those years, the fish was swimming in copper-treated water", "ich can kill a fish in just a couple of days" and "we now have liquid copper that will cure it in a few days" etc

hhttps://www.reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/7-paul-baldassanos-40-year-old-reef

Just like in case of humans I guess there are also fish illnesses which will kill a fish regardless of their condition. There might be also diseases which kill exactly because of the very strong immune response, the very recent example being some coronavirus cases.

However strong a fish immune system, when you buy it and bring it home thats a major unavoidable stress and at that point whatever illness they have might win. Even if the fish had a superstrong immune system.

Once there is a suitable sized tank where all fish survived initial stress and sicknesses and you stop adding a lot of things then I assume tank can be very successfull for a very long time without medication and QT. Thats one viable route.

But if you are trying to put together a new system with lots of fish or are frequently adding new fish from todays shops where there is a sick fish in every second tank, thats a quite high risk operation. You cant avoid the initial rehoming and "new fish mate arrived to my territory" stress and sicknesses can conquer at that point.

You also cant prepare a fish immune system for all existing pathogens, being superimmune to all strains of ich doesnt translate to being immune to other diseases, if you introduce more and more fish there is a risk eventually it catches something.

So I think the ideal approach depends on what you are doing with your tank. As always there are different approaches and tools for different situations, also a lot depends on the specific fish, maybe one fish doesnt care about moving between tanks, but more susceptible to a disease, while the other fish has super strong immune system, but is stressed out more easily.

Just because one approach works for someone for a specific situation it doesnt mean it will work for everyone else.

 

[reef_1]

It is not quarantine or medication that does that as they don't get medicated in the sea.

Human life expectancy were low twenties and most died at a very young age, but it didnt matter as people had many kids. Now with advanced medicine we can make sure these specific few kids will survive, so we dont need 15 kids per couple to maintain our species.

Similar things happen with the fish we add to our tanks, as we do not have thousands of the same swimming around like in the ocean we want THAT specific fish to survive and for that one medicine comes handy sometimes.

In the ocean it doesnt matter if a fish dies without medication as there are thousands more very close and thousands more are spawning in that very moment as the ocean is a suitable environment for the fish to have thousands of offsprings, while in our fish tank they cant have thousands of offsprings replacing them, so we need to nurture that single fish.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Lots of good discussion here, but it all should have begun with definitions - active versus passive quarantine, methods employed, etc.

Some ideas presented are simply not born out in real life applications. The most prevalent of these is to "let the fish be exposed to diseases in order to build their immunity". The trouble is, not all parasites build immunity, and those that are known to do (Cryptocaryon) the effect is transient, and lasts around 6 months.

I also saw no mention of "propagule pressure"....captive fish immunity is overwhelmed by the presence of huge numbers of propagules in the water, and they themselves are a stressor.

In my opinion, there is no question; for aquariums (public or private) you need to eliminate certain parasites altogether with a comprehensive quarantine process, and then manage other issues though good environment. Specifically; keeping Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium, Gryodactylus and Neobenedenia out of the systems through a comprehensive quarantine process and then managing other issues (bacterial mainly, like Mycobacteria, but also Uronema) through a strong micro biome and excellent water quality and diet. That just leaves rarer or unknown issues; viruses, coccidia and things like that which cannot really be treated or managed.

Jay

 

[areefer01]

I am not sure what running a diatom filter a few times a year has to do with anything, but if that is the secret, why doesn't everyone do that instead of going nuts every time they add a fish.

What does a diatom filter do? Removes particulates, clearing bacterial blooms. Some say even filters out parasites that swim or similar. Does it? I don't know nor claim to. But you use one a couple times a year correct? UV? Ozone?

Yes. I have been asking for decades on this forum, Reef Central and 4 or 5 others and so far, I have not even found one old, fully quarantined or medicated tank where the fish are healthy and possibly spawning and dying of old age. No one here has one, do they? We are talking about a hobby that started in 1971 so a lot of tanks were started. Where are they?

Maybe you are looking in the wrong places or they don't post on forums. There are many that don't.

I have posted quite a few times how stress shortens the lifespan of a fish and that proof was from Neurologists, not hobiests on a fish forum. I have shown how the telemeres in every cell on every living thing allow a creature to live out it's natural lifespan and how it shortens through medication and quarantine thus shortening it's lifespan. I just posted a thread on how that happens.

You can't get around that and it's science, not just the ramblings from an electrician.
Here is how you prove health:

With all due respect I believe you are being naive here. There are many hobbyist who have spawning fish which also includes captive bred and/or raised. Hobbyist are also raising some challenging ones like the Marine Beta. And our fellow hobbyist also have old fish.

Many people get the wrong idea about my method. I purposely don't medicate or quarantine to insure the long term health and lifespan of the fish, not the opposite. It is much easier to quarantine or medicate something than to get it healthy naturally.

You have something that works for you and house animals that will thrive in it. That isn't the concern. The concern is that a new hobbyist not understanding it and thinking QT is an evil thing. The question the OP raised is if it is worth the effort. Short answer is both yes and no. Yes if it is done correctly and no if it isn't.

We can keep a cancer patient alive for a long time in quarantine using drugs, but that is not really living

Has nothing to do with quarantine. Yes - medication or methods can extend ones life but patient care or quality of life is for another forum or table talk. Not here and not related.