Are there disease resistant fish?

[4FordFamily]

The reason that if you Google white spot or ich with royal grammas, firefish, and damsels and find many results is, not that these fish are overly susceptible to ich, it is that they are very, very, common. They aren't resistant, nor are they prone, they fall somewhere in the middle.

Tangs are most certainly not scaleless fish. They do, however, produce a thinner slime coat, which makes them more prone to having these parasites attach '.

This nails it

Just like when the driver of a less common car says "I see Ford Taurus, f150, explorer, Chevy Impala, and Tahoe in the shop more than anything". Well yeah, they make up 50% of all cars on the road darn near of course you do!

 

[Humblefish]

I should add that watching my hippos suffer over the years (not all of them did) like that to build their resistance was pretty evil and cold.

I won't lie I sort of expected other tangs other than zebrasoma to be able to do the same. Nope. In fact, a zebrasoma completely infested will probably succomb once they get to that point, IME

Good point. I wouldn't like being locked in a room with biting mosquitoes, even though technically I could probably live thru it.

 

[john.m.cole3]

the original post and question was created b/c this topic has me thinking about things in the back of my mind. I'm 7 days away from the end of my 76 day fallow period, and I want to do things the right way. My 2 fish that survived were in cupramine at .45 for 31 days and look and act fine. I will QT all fish that go in the DT in the future. The if factor comes when I add new corals and inverts. I don't have a frag QT set up. I know the chances are minimal, but if a coral is introduced with some ich let's say on it, will the tank get infected again? Or if the fish are resilient enough, can the parasite find no host and die off? And another question is, Will dipping corals in Coral Rx kill disease?

 

[Humblefish]

I know the chances are minimal, but if a coral is introduced with some ich let's say on it, will the tank get infected again?

If a tomont is encysted upon the coral, then yes. The risk is greatest if the coral comes from an environment with fish where ich is known to be present; it is least likely if the coral is maintained in a fishless environment for 76 days. However, even 45 days of isolation should protect you from all but the "76 day variant".

You also need to consider that velvet and possibly brook, uronema have a tomont stage. Fluke eggs are also possible on corals. 45 days of isolation from fish would protect you from these; the 76 days in a fishless environment extends the protection for one strain of ich. How common (or rare) this strain is no one knows.

Or if the fish are resilient enough, can the parasite find no host and die off?

Highly unlikely. And even immune fish can still act as carriers, infecting other fish.

And another question is, Will dipping corals in Coral Rx kill disease?

To my knowledge, no tests have been done using coral dips for that application. But I consider it unlikely, as not even copper is capable of killing the tomont stage.

 

[john.m.cole3]

If a tomont is encysted upon the coral, then yes. The risk is greatest if the coral comes from an environment with fish where ich is known to be present; it is least likely if the coral is maintained in a fishless environment for 76 days. However, even 45 days of isolation should protect you from all but the "76 day variant".

You also need to consider that velvet and possibly brook, uronema have a tomont stage. Fluke eggs are also possible on corals. 45 days of isolation from fish would protect you from these; the 76 days in a fishless environment extends the protection for one strain of ich. How common (or rare) this strain is no one knows.



Highly unlikely. And even immune fish can still act as carriers, infecting other fish.



To my knowledge, no tests have been done using coral dips for that application. But I consider it unlikely, as not even copper is capable of killing the tomont stage.

Thank you. I certainly do appreciate the advice.

 

[john.m.cole3]

It seems that the few that are able to keep fish that had once been sick are practicing high level variations of ich management or disease management for that matter. They have found a way against irradiation that suits them.

 

[bevo5]

As someone who is currently battling an ich outbreak in my DT - I can 100% say a good QT system is the highly preferable option. I QT all of my fish - except one jerk face trigger I had to move early about 5 months ago. He was doing fine for the two weeks I had him and I needed the QT for the typical reason one does stupid stuff - a really cool fish came into the store.

So I moved the trigger over and sure enough - about a week or so later - he's got ich. So from that point it's in the tank. Of the 15 fish in there the trigger, hippo tang and white tail tang periodically show spots. But everyone is seemingly happy otherwise and nothing ever gets too out of control.

Until this past week. I QT two new fish (flame angel and harlequin). They go through the 14 days of Copper etc. All is good so I toss them in the big tank just as I notice that the trigger and white tail are showing a few spots of ich again....so there are obviously spores. Of course the Flame and Harlequin are stressed and end up showing a few spots a few days later...and then are covered a few days after that.

I managed to get the harlequin and trigger out and into copper but the flame is impossible. He stopped eating and wont come out of rocks that are glued in place. I tried for the white tail and hippo - but no joy.

Situation is now: ich is in the tank, more fish with it meant more spores being released. The other fish who had - up until this point - managed to fend it off are having a harder time. So it's only a matter of time before things start dropping off.

I can't move all of the fish out...nowhere to put them that is cycled and ready to go. I figure dropping them in a tank that can't support the bioload will only stress them out. At this point they might fight it off better if I leave them be.

I did add a Emperor Aquatics 40w UV pumping a lowly 175gph (in the recommended zone)...so while it might not help cure the issue at hand, it might help limit the problem in the future. I'm also doing 25% water changes every other day (it's a 200g tank so it takes a while to get water ready)...and I've increased feeding and Selcon.

I'm hopeful I won't lose everything.

QT your fish. Why not?

 

[atoll]

The reason that if you Google white spot or ich with royal grammas, firefish, and damsels and find many results is, not that these fish are overly susceptible to ich, it is that they are very, very, common. They aren't resistant, nor are they prone, they fall somewhere in the middle.

Tangs are most certainly not scaleless fish. They do, however, produce a thinner slime coat, which makes them more prone to having these parasites attach.

Good diet goes a long way to promoting a good immune system in fish. However, it does not eliminate the pathogen, it helps the fish ward it off. This is a fine method if a keeper is able to provide a relatively stress free environment. Unfortunately, as most hobbyists have learned the hard way, unexpected challenges can, and do arise. Power outages, equipment failure, an unusually unruly fish, all of these can provide stressors, which in turn can cause the fish to produce cortisol. This in turn inhibits the fish's immune system, making them more susceptible to the pathogens in the tank. This situation is manageable, but precarious.

It is similar to a healthy human. We are surrounded by disease and pathogens, but someone with a healthy immune system can usually handle it with little affect. In contrast though, a human's immune system is more complex.

The hobbyists that go decades without a proper qt and relying on just 'good nutrition' and manage to avoid a major outbreak are the exception and not the rule.


The 'overview' provided for the powder blue above are an excellent example of where those charts can err. For the Diver's Den side of Live Aquaria, which pays a bit more attention to detail than the regular Live Aquaria, powder blues are listed as 'expert only'.

Not my words
Quote "There is also no evidence to suggest that tangs and other surgeon fishes in general are any more susceptible to marine ich than any other smooth-skinned, scaleless marine fishes."Am not saying that is true or not however.

"The reason that if you Google white spot or ich with royal grammas, firefish, and damsels and find many results is, not that these fish are overly susceptible to ich, it is that they are very, very, common. They aren't resistant, nor are they prone, they fall somewhere in the middle."

Common or not they will catch white spot in many peoples tanks for various reasons. So when first purchased there is always a risk of introducing white spot with them Most of these fish are easily bullied while tangs are more likely to be the aggressors and yes if a bullied fish catches white spot then the aggressor is also likely to end up with it. I have 5 Stary damsels 2 Talbots damsels 2 Purple firefish 2 Royal grammas 2 Gobbies out of a total of 22 fish in my 100 gallon. I have kept various tangs with similar fish over the last 25 years. Never OTd a fish in my life never had a seen any white spot in any of my tanks and part from some initial flicking against the sand for a day or 2 all seemed perfectly healthy, lived long lives with many spawning. Paul B reports similar.

I will of course standby what I believe the last 25 out of 35 years keeping marines has taught me about diseases like white spot. in fact that is something of a contradiction as it has taught me very little about white spot given I have not seen an outbreak of it in any of my tanks for around 25 years. Paul B will even purposely introduce a fish with white spot and it will be clear in days with none of his other fish showing signs of it. I would never knowingly introduce a fish with white spots showing on them. Is Paul and myself just lucky or is there something in what we are doing preventing white spot taking hold in our tanks? There is little or no luck involved in our opinions. We must be doing something wrong not to catch white spot.

It is said many fish carry white spot and they just have to be weakened for it to break out. I am not sure if that is true or not but I suspect there maybe some truth in it. Prevention is better than cure they say but neither Paul nor myself QT our fish yet we have thriving disease fee fish. I doubt we will be changing our methods any day soon.

 

[4FordFamily]

Not my words
Quote "There is also no evidence to suggest that tangs and other surgeon fishes in general are any more susceptible to marine ich than any other smooth-skinned, scaleless marine fishes."Am not saying that is true or not however.

"The reason that if you Google white spot or ich with royal grammas, firefish, and damsels and find many results is, not that these fish are overly susceptible to ich, it is that they are very, very, common. They aren't resistant, nor are they prone, they fall somewhere in the middle."

Common or not they will catch white spot in many peoples tanks for various reasons. So when first purchased there is always a risk of introducing white spot with them Most of these fish are easily bullied while tangs are more likely to be the aggressors and yes if a bullied fish catches white spot then the aggressor is also likely to end up with it. I have 5 Stary damsels 2 Talbots damsels 2 Purple firefish 2 Royal grammas 2 Gobbies out of a total of 22 fish in my 100 gallon. I have kept various tangs with similar fish over the last 25 years. Never OTd a fish in my life never had a seen any white spot in any of my tanks and part from some initial flicking against the sand for a day or 2 all seemed perfectly healthy, lived long lives with many spawning. Paul B reports similar.

I will of course standby what I believe the last 25 out of 35 years keeping marines has taught me about diseases like white spot. in fact that is something of a contradiction as it has taught me very little about white spot given I have not seen an outbreak of it in any of my tanks for around 25 years. Paul B will even purposely introduce a fish with white spot and it will be clear in days with none of his other fish showing signs of it. I would never knowingly introduce a fish with white spots showing on them. Is Paul and myself just lucky or is there something in what we are doing preventing white spot taking hold in our tanks? There is little or no luck involved in our opinions. We must be doing something wrong not to catch white spot.

It is said many fish carry white spot and they just have to be weakened for it to break out. I am not sure if that is true or not but I suspect there maybe some truth in it. Prevention is better than cure they say but neither Paul nor myself QT our fish yet we have thriving disease fee fish. I doubt we will be changing our methods any day soon.

Again, with your stock you have no reason to change your methods. I've done it too, as have dozens of my past customers for decades.

 

[eatbreakfast]

I find that using 'spawning' to be a little low on standards of determining overall health. As long as I'm not on Death's door I will readily take any opportunity to 'spawn' allowed.

Also, I find that 'just proviing a healthy diet' to prevent illness is very similar to those health nuts that everyone seems to know of at least one. The guy that tauts he hasn't been sick in x amount of years, yet every winter gets 'allergies' for a few days when everyone else has a cold.

The fact of the matter is the fish may be living long lives and be quite healthy, and be able to pretty effectively deal with any of these parasites. However, fighting a disease is still a fight the fish are dealing with, energy and resources are being expended, even if they are generally pretty successful. By qting you are not making their immune system always work, even if it is working smoothly.

Also, Paul B is adding fish, atoll is adding fish. Somewhere, somehow fish are being lost along the way. It may be attributed to 'old age' or other 'natural causes' but how can anyone be certain of what the causes were in situations like that, with latent parasites present?

 

[FarmerTy]

I find that using 'spawning' to be a little low on standards of determining overall health. As long as I'm not on Death's door I will readily take any opportunity to 'spawn' allowed.

Also, I find that 'just proviing a healthy diet' to prevent illness is very similar to those health nuts that everyone seems to know of at least one. The guy that tauts he hasn't been sick in x amount of years, yet every winter gets 'allergies' for a few days when everyone else has a cold.

The fact of the matter is the fish may be living long lives and be quite healthy, and be able to pretty effectively deal with any of these parasites. However, fighting a disease is still a fight the fish are dealing with, energy and resources are being expended, even if they are generally pretty successful. By qting you are not making their immune system always work, even if it is working smoothly.

Also, Paul B is adding fish, atoll is adding fish. Somewhere, somehow fish are being lost along the way. It may be attributed to 'old age' or other 'natural causes' but how can anyone be certain of what the causes were in situations like that, with latent parasites present?

ROTFL, that "one guy" analogy with allergies tickled my funny bone. [emoji4]

My clownfish spawned in my QT tub with 75+ ppm of nitrates and 0.25 ppm of phosphates. Would I consider them or their environment healthy? Life finds a way, as long as they have just enough, they'll reproduce to keep the circle going. Another perfect example is the release of gametes by a coco worm before it dies. I couldn't make it in this environment, but I'll spread my seed in hopes that my progeny will. IMO, spawning is no clear indicator of healthy individuals or healthy environment for that matter.

 

[Paul B]

I find that using 'spawning' to be a little low on standards of determining overall health. As long as I'm not on Death's door I will readily take any opportunity to 'spawn' allowed.

Also, Paul B is adding fish, atoll is adding fish. Somewhere, somehow fish are being lost along the way. It may be attributed to 'old age' or other 'natural causes' but how can anyone be certain of what the causes were in situations like that, with latent parasites present?

Paul B rarely adds any fish. He has no more room, he told me.

I do lose some fish. I normally post when I do. My 12 year old spawning watchman gobies died. Old age I assume but I really don't know. My bluestripe pipefish I replace every 4 or 5 years as that is their lifespan. My shrimpfish died. I am just a lousy shrimpfish keeper and they eat 800 million new born brine shrimp a day. A copperband jumped out 4 or 5 years ago and I replaced him. Some large gobies and a couple of wrasses jumped out. I think I covered all the holes now but it is hard in my tank because I have no sump so there are a lot of openings. Many of my fish die after 10 or 12 years or so as that is the lifespan of many fish especially small fish as the type I keep. I lost one of my breeding pair of clown gobies a couple of years ago. They only live a few years. My clowns are 25. But I "never, never" lost a fish through disease. Like never. I can't remember the last time that happened "unless it was a fish I just bought already with a disease and I got it to see if I could save it" . OK maybe 35 years ago I lost fish, I don't remember that long ago. As was said, I like parasites because they keep my fishes immune system strong. You are welcome to come here and put a parasite infected fish in my reef. My fish will laugh at you. Some of them may spit at you though. I add ocean mud, fish, crabs, amphipods, seaweeds and any fish from any LFS and have been for decades. No diseases. Disease comes from keeping a sterile, over quarantined tank. Fish have a fantastic immune system but very few of us allow the fish to use it and almost none of us feed properly.
And fish spawning is an excellent guide to a fishes health or more importantly, if your paired adult fish are not spawning, they are in pretty bad health as virtually all healthy, paired, adult fish that can spawn should spawn. All wild fish are pregnant all the time.
I have one medication and it was made in Brooklyn. I think I got it in the 70s. It is copper and formalin which I would only use on something that I get for free and I attempt to cure it. I have no quarantine or hospital tank as I have no need for them. I posted my theories numerous times along with pictures and even wrote a book.
If your fish get white spots, it is your fault, not the store, the fish or Lady GaGa.
This is not that hard and if some of us can have immune fish, we all can.
If I offended anyone. I don't know, I guess you have to get over it or just make fun of me or draw silly pictures of me. Tweet about my stupid methods on Twitter as I don't even know what that is.
Manatees spawning near my powerhead.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Paul B rarely adds any fish. He has no more room, he told me.

I do lose some fish. I normally post when I do. My 12 year old spawning watchman gobies died. Old age I assume but I really don't know. My bluestripe pipefish I replace every 4 or 5 years as that is their lifespan. My shrimpfish died. I am just a lousy shrimpfish keeper and they eat 800 million new born brine shrimp a day. A copperband jumped out 4 or 5 years ago and I replaced him. Some large gobies and a couple of wrasses jumped out. I think I covered all the holes now but it is hard in my tank because I have no sump so there are a lot of openings. Many of my fish die after 10 or 12 years or so as that is the lifespan of many fish especially small fish as the type I keep. I lost one of my breeding pair of clown gobies a couple of years ago. They only live a few years. My clowns are 25. But I "never, never" lost a fish through disease. Like never. I can't remember the last time that happened "unless it was a fish I just bought already with a disease and I got it to see if I could save it" . OK maybe 35 years ago I lost fish, I don't remember that long ago. As was said, I like parasites because they keep my fishes immune system strong. You are welcome to come here and put a parasite infected fish in my reef. My fish will laugh at you. Some of them may spit at you though. I add ocean mud, fish, crabs, amphipods, seaweeds and any fish from any LFS and have been for decades. No diseases. Disease comes from keeping a sterile, over quarantined tank. Fish have a fantastic immune system but very few of us allow the fish to use it and almost none of us feed properly.
And fish spawning is an excellent guide to a fishes health or more importantly, if your paired adult fish are not spawning, they are in pretty bad health as virtually all healthy, paired, adult fish that can spawn should spawn. All wild fish are pregnant all the time. Kind of like Mormons.
I have one medication and it was made in Brooklyn. I think I got it in the 70s. It is copper and formalin which I would only use on something that I get for free and I attempt to cure it. I have no quarantine or hospital tank as I have no need for them. I posted my theories numerous times along with pictures and even wrote a book.
If your fish get white spots, it is your fault, not the store, the fish or Lady GaGa.
This is not that hard and if some of us can have immune fish, we all can.
If I offended anyone. I don't know, I guess you have to get over it or just make fun of me or draw silly pictures of me. Tweet about my stupid methods on Twitter as I don't even know what that is.
Manatees spawning near my powerhead.

The lengths you go to are well beyond the lengths that the average aquarist will go. Making a homemade food of hand caught ocean foods is awesome and no doubt goes a long way preventing disease. Adding ocean or saltwater marsh mud is another example of going well beyond the realms of what the exceedingly vast majority of hobbyists perform. I'm sure these exceptional efforts are reflected in many other aspects of your regular husbandry practices.

However, most others are not going to all these same lengths, so for most hobbyists quarantine is still the best practice.

Also, the concept of keeping an immune system in good working order by keeping it facing disease and parasites is not something that is entirely accurate. An immune system is intrinsically tied to genetics, it's not changing over the course of a fish's lifetime, maybe not even for a few generations of fish.

Without pergorming an autopsy, to say that a fish died of old age is also, not entirely accurate. Nothing dies of old age, complications related to old age such as heart failure or other organ failure, yes. But oftentimes death occurs due to complications associated with disease, that a healthy or even younger specimen could have survived.

Disease or parasites may be able to be handled by most healthy fish and may be present, perhaps not to overtly noticeable symptoms, but if they are present how do you know for certain that the complication for some of your 'old fish' wasn't flukes or any other parasite and if that parasite wasn't present perhaps a few more years would have gone by before the fush passed?

There is no way of knowing that for certain, but to say that disease free environments cause disease is really a dangerous notion to spread.

 

[jsker]

I tend to agree with @paul and also you @eatbreakfast make some very good points. The last time I had an outbreak, I caused the out break by stressing my fish trying to keep the tank to clean. I have never quarantine either, and do not see the need. If the fish was farm raised of captured there are different variables and they my get tired from shipping and like humans there immune system will weakened and if not assessed fast enough it will get worse. When we purchase our fish do we know were they have been? how long they were in the retailer tank/wholesalers tank. Was the fish caught illegally with cyanide or how ever they do it or in the farm tank did the little guy get nervous and bounce off the side of the tank or scrape on a rock. We do not know this and this is a very stress full situation for the fish. I believe by putting in a health tank instead of a sterile environment is much better to getting back to there calm relaxed state to were the fish live out there lives as best as we can help them.

Lets look at sterile environments. Diseases will transfer quicker in a sterile environment if there is nothing to stop it and thus this why in the lab they use sterile a environments one to grow the sample, the other to keep it contained. This is one of the reason now that hospitals want humans out of the hospital as fast as possible, it is a breading ground for disease for the reason it is so clean.

Yes most living organisms get up there in years/time things start to go and they there are complications and and it dyes. Valid point.

As for myself, that I am getting older I am taking better care of myself than I did 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago by eating at home. I am not eating processed food or drinking products that have artificial ingredients anymore. This is what I do for myself, wife, cats, and fish.corals, crabs, anemone, snails, shimps My fish are happy today, and tomorrow they should be happy also. One thing thing if have learned is that I am having success with small changes, good food, a small amount of vitamins. The reason I do not to the gulf or west cost, it is a two hour round trip, and if you have to travel with my wife you have to drink along the way

I think we have some fantastic members on the R2R site that have a vast source of knowledge and experience. We may do things different, but end goal is for the reefing community and the environment.

 

[FarmerTy]

Just playing devil's advocate, can I put a fish with diagnosed marine velvet in one of the tanks that doesn't QT and see what happens in the name of science?

Or in the same vein, in a room full of healthy people, can I put one person in the room with ebola?

I know the example is absurd but to me, to a lesser degree at least, you're taking the same gamble with your tank.

 

[Humblefish]

Just playing devil's advocate, can I put a fish with diagnosed marine velvet in one of the tanks that doesn't QT and see what happens in the name of science?

I'm sure Paul would be OK with you using his tank in the name of science.

 

[jsker]

Just playing devil's advocate, can I put a fish with diagnosed marine velvet in one of the tanks that doesn't QT and see what happens in the name of science?

You are so bad report back with the result if you do.

 

[FarmerTy]

Oh I know, the example is extreme but just throwing it out there for thought. [emoji4]

 

[john.m.cole3]

Ok, now that we are playing devil's advocate, if velvet was introduced to a tank of healthy fish, what are the different fish that would be able to either not contract or fight off the disease?

 

[FarmerTy]

Ok, now that we are playing devil's advocate, if velvet was introduced to a tank of healthy fish, what are the different fish that would be able to either not contract or fight off the disease?

I lost about 13 fish the last time velvet hit my tank. So, I'd say a majority of them aren't going to be surviving it unless you catch it quickly. [emoji53]

Some were with me for 4+ years so I'm going to go out on a limb and call them healthy.