Are these prices serious? Who buys this stuff?

[Fourstars]

PLease 1500, give it a break, Just responding to Saf reply. If you feel threatened or jealous just don't reply.. there is an ignore button if that would be helpful to you.

 

[mattzang]

It's really not. @ 3:10

give me the fish at 7:50 over any tiger angel or gem tang or koi tang

 

[cain720]

Looks like a 60$ fish. I'd never had guess this was something special without seeing that LA listing. Def not ugly though.

It's more about rarity and status.

In my opinion a $30 flame angel looks better than a $5000 clarion angel, and most people not in the hobby would probably agree.

 

[sde1500]

Think that proves my point. Anywho

give me the fish at 7:50 over any tiger angel or gem tang or koi tang

That over the kingi I'd definitely agree. Though there is something to be said for rarity, it obviously is a draw for some. I find many of the rare and pricey angels quite uninteresting looking. I'd love a gem though... But that is also one of the great parts of the hobby, different strokes for different folks. Even take Teds (humaguy) tank on RC, he has an insane collection of fish in his tanks. Fellow hobbyists are all drawn to the cool rare/interesting ones. He's said the Royal Gramma is one of the biggest hits with non-hobbyists lol.

It's more about rarity and status.

In my opinion a $30 flame angel looks better than a $5000 clarion angel, and most people not in the hobby would probably agree.

IDK about a clarion, those are at least brightly colored too. Conspic maybe.

 

[MnFish1]

Not sure about status but I do agree that they don't care about the price. People with that sort of income tend to lose track of what a simple $10 dollar bill is. To them that $10 is no different than a $100.

I remember a while back I was listening to a radio interview while driving to the Unit with Kevin Costner. Anyway the disk jockey and he are casual acquaintances and always had this game they played with one another whereas he would ask Kevin if they wanted to swap wallets. A bet so to speak or if they wanted to change. Anyway it came up and the radio lad declined to play but wanted to know what Kevin had going on. Long story short he had a bunch of crap wadded up in his pocket and it turned out to be about 4,300 dollars. He asked him why he carries around so much cash like that and Kevin said it was his spending money for the day...

So yeah - 10, 20, 11,000. What is the difference when you are earning over 10,000 or more a day.

All of you seem to be making sweeping generalizations about what “rich” people do. I humbly suggest you’re wrong. The rich people that stay rich don’t just go spend money like it’s nothing. The instant rich like lottery winners and sports stars celebrities do. At least some of them. Google warren buffet if you think wring

 

[cain720]

IDK about a clarion, those are at least brightly colored too. Conspic maybe.

Yeah a conspic is probably a better example. Buying a $4000 fish that looks like a finger-painted turd is the ultimate flex.

 

[Art2249]

It’s all about supply and demand. If the prices were too high, the corals wouldn’t sell and vendors would drop their prices to move them. They seem to be doing quite well at current prices so someone is buying them.

Perfect example... I paid $2500 for a one of a kind golden retriever puppy recently and I would do it again in a heartbeat. Most other people would not pay that price for any dog. Supply and demand.

Three months ago I had puppy that looks like a miniature schnauzer dumped int my lap. he has the attitudt to go with it. The thing is, I have had so many dogs over the years. Registered german shepherds and things like that. But this little mutt makes the most serious eye contact of any dog i have ever seen. Very trainable.

 

[Hypan]

I'm sorry to break the news but this is the new norm.

One of my other hobbies is military vehicles, I would Love to have a nice half track or even a tank but simply cannot afford it. I could have 20 or 30 years ago. I don't go around complaining how expensive it is like something is going to magically change. The more people that enter a hobby the bigger it gets commercialized. Look at airsoft and video games.

Hell. this whole hobby is still really new. What does everyone think it will be like on the next 30 years?

This is an expensive hobby. Seriously, you need a self contained life support system (aquariumand equipment ), then a person has to collect an animal from the depths of the ocean ( halfway around the planet), ship it to another person, then ship it again to hopefully its final destination in who knows where. I have always though when I was buying $40 colonies back in the late 90s that someone was definitely getting the short end of the stick somewhere in the supply chain, Then the internet comes along and it opened the whole market wide up. now everyone had access to way more customers than just their local reefers.

 

[User1]

All of you seem to be making sweeping generalizations about what “rich” people do. I humbly suggest you’re wrong. The rich people that stay rich don’t just go spend money like it’s nothing. The instant rich like lottery winners and sports stars celebrities do. At least some of them. Google warren buffet if you think wring

Not really. I mean you quoted my reply but maybe took it a bit out of context or I had a poor example. In either case Mr. Buffet is also not a good example. While I believe you are referencing his modest home there is a much darker side due to Berkshire Hathaway.

Point is people with higher earning, incomes, or what have to do look at money differently. Yes there are examples of people blowing it all going riches to rags just as much as others that are penny wise. I get it. I was just agreeing with Mr. Riddle in that when they are buying something of that price, especially a fish, they probably won't care if it is 10,900 or 10, 999, or 11,000.

 

[MnFish1]

Not really. I mean you quoted my reply but maybe took it a bit out of context or I had a poor example. In either case Mr. Buffet is also not a good example. While I believe you are referencing his modest home there is a much darker side due to Berkshire Hathaway.

Point is people with higher earning, incomes, or what have to do look at money differently. Yes there are examples of people blowing it all going riches to rags just as much as others that are penny wise. I get it. I was just agreeing with Mr. Riddle in that when they are buying something of that price, especially a fish, they probably won't care if it is 10,900 or 10, 999, or 11,000.

Sorry yours was just the most recent one. We’re not talking about companies we’re talking about people with money right. My point was only that most people that keep their money do t toss it out the window. For example somewhat might buy a Milloon dollar painting as an investment. That same person is t likely to be. Million dollar hammer coral

 

[User1]

Sorry yours was just the most recent one. We’re not talking about companies we’re talking about people with money right. My point was only that most people that keep their money do t toss it out the window. For example somewhat might buy a Milloon dollar painting as an investment. That same person is t likely to be. Million dollar hammer coral

I see how it is...I'm the collateral damage Just kidding. I think we are on the same page actually or somewhat close not that it matters. So a quick light smack on the shoulder and off we go for a beverage

If that is OK with you of course.

 

[Lousybreed]

Here are my thoughts after reading the responses. I think prices like this put you in a bad light. Can you do it? Sure. Should you? Well that is the question. All of this boils down to this: if the indo ban lifts supply increases. Other places now have access to nice pieces. They post them for cheaper and people buy the cheaper corals. Other side to the coin, this idiotic pricing WILL drive aquaculture advancements with a focus on driving operating costs down. Cheaper aquaculture prices will push out these insane prices. At some point if this lunacy continues, private equity firms will crunch the numbers and decide to invest into a aquaculture facility. Either way prices will come down long term.

 

[desagon]

Here are my thoughts after reading the responses. I think prices like this put you in a bad light. Can you do it? Sure. Should you? Well that is the question. All of this boils down to this: if the indo ban lifts supply increases. Other places now have access to nice pieces. They post them for cheaper and people buy the cheaper corals. Other side to the coin, this idiotic pricing WILL drive aquaculture advancements with a focus on driving operating costs down. Cheaper aquaculture prices will push out these insane prices. At some point if this lunacy continues, private equity firms will crunch the numbers and decide to invest into a aquaculture facility. Either way prices will come down long term.

I wish that were true. I think of it like the airline prices. Airlines raised prices because of increased oil costs a while back. After the oil costs dropped, airline prices kept going up. Airlines knew people would still pay regardless of what the cost of oil was. After (if) the ban lifts, most people wont lower prices. So long as people keep paying, people will keep selling. The only way prices will go down is if enough people complain and stop buying online. Vendors will have no choice but to lower prices so they can make a sale.

 

[Mr.Z]

I wish that were true. I think of it like the airline prices. Airlines raised prices because of increased oil costs a while back. After the oil costs dropped, airline prices kept going up. Airlines knew people would still pay regardless of what the cost of oil was. After (if) the ban lifts, most people wont lower prices. So long as people keep paying, people will keep selling. The only way prices will go down is if enough people complain and stop buying online. Vendors will have no choice but to lower prices so they can make a sale.

Airlines have been able to keep prices relatively high because of consolidation in the market. There are limited suppliers of plane tickets for each given destination pair. Given the very high barriers to entry of running an airline and the necessarily limited supply of airline slots at airports in major metropolitan markets, it is harder for more supply to meet a given amount of demand.

Coral markets are very very different. The barriers to entry are low, and it is relatively cheap to scale up operations of aquaculture. Additionally, there is no natural limitation to expanding coral farming like there is a natural limitation to airline infrastructure.

Yes, if people stop buying expensive corals, prices will come down. However, prices will also come down as new suppliers are attracted to the incentives (i.e. profits) in the coral market and provide more product to buyers. As the supply curve shifts out, more quantity will be provided and prices absolutely will come down.

 

[scriptmonkey]

So let me say I am proud of almost all of you. We are having a debate in a very civil manner, so kudos. Usually this devolves into name calling, hurt feelings reports are filed, mods have to come in and keep the peace. Whambalaces hauling off the casualties so thanks.

 

[desagon]

Airlines have been able to keep prices relatively high because of consolidation in the market. There are limited suppliers of plane tickets for each given destination pair. Given the very high barriers to entry of running an airline and the necessarily limited supply of airline slots at airports in major metropolitan markets, it is harder for more supply to meet a given amount of demand.

Coral markets are very very different. The barriers to entry are low, and it is relatively cheap to scale up operations of aquaculture. Additionally, there is no natural limitation to expanding coral farming like there is a natural limitation to airline infrastructure.

Yes, if people stop buying expensive corals, prices will come down. However, prices will also come down as new suppliers are attracted to the incentives (i.e. profits) in the coral market and provide more product to buyers. As the supply curve shifts out, more quantity will be provided and prices absolutely will come down.

I agree with you, but I think you kinda missed my point and brought econ 101 into the mix. I mentioned a very simple point that just because the Indo-ban is in effect, doesnt necessarily mean that prices will go down IF the ban is lifted. Just like the the cost of a flight never went down after the cost of oil went down like people hoped for. The market for corals is still relatively new so theres a very small track record of the industry, and if more countries ban coral exporting, it will absolutely not lead to lower prices. Where are all the corals going to come from because as of right now, a great amount still come from the ocean. Bottom line is that theres not many people in the hobby as it is, and there are many, probably thousands, of people who sell corals at swaps and online, yet prices are still high.

 

[Mr.Z]

I agree with you, but I think you kinda missed my point and brought econ 101 into the mix. I mentioned a very simple point that just because the Indo-ban is in effect, doesnt necessarily mean that prices will go down IF the ban is lifted. Just like the the cost of a flight never went down after the cost of oil went down like people hoped for. The market for corals is still relatively new so theres a very small track record of the industry, and if more countries ban coral exporting, it will absolutely not lead to lower prices. Where are all the corals going to come from because as of right now, a great amount still come from the ocean. Bottom line is that theres not many people in the hobby as it is, and there are many, probably thousands, of people who sell corals at swaps and online, yet prices are still high.

I'm not sure why bringing econ into this is wrong -- that's a majority of the dynamics at play. If the ban is lifted, supply of corals will increase, costs of wholesalers/distributors will decrease, prices will decrease.

 

[desagon]

I'm not sure why bringing econ into this is wrong -- that's a majority of the dynamics at play. If the ban is lifted, supply of corals will increase, costs of wholesalers/distributors will decrease, prices will decrease.

You're right about that. I won't argue this isnt an economic issue. I was only referring to my analogy that I gave.
What are your thoughts on the current trend with a relatively high amount of sellers in the market, yet high prices?
If the ban doesn't lift and other countries follow suit and start a ban, do you think the even further limited supply would meet the demand?
I'm not saying this in a condescending tone in any way. I'm genuinely curious because you seem to have knowledge in economics.

 

[Mr.Z]

You're right about that. I won't argue this isnt an economic issue. I was only referring to my analogy that I gave.
What are your thoughts on the current trend with a relatively high amount of sellers in the market, yet high prices?
If the ban doesn't lift and other countries follow suit and start a ban, do you think the even further limited supply would meet the demand?
I'm not saying this in a condescending tone in any way. I'm genuinely curious because you seem to have knowledge in economics.

If we take the suggestion that there is a high amount of sellers in the market and high prices as given, then this implies that there is high demand. Consumers have a high willingness to pay for corals; if they didn't, then these current prices would not be sustained.

If more countries follow suit and institute a ban, supply would be further constrained. Supply would still meet demand, meaning the supply curve and demand curves would still intersect (you can assume supply and demand curves always intersect at some point). However, a constricted supply would indicate a shift of the supply curve resulting in lower quantity bought/sold and higher price.

 

[Lousybreed]

Good discussion gents. I would like to introduce one more topic in the mix. Barrier to entry. So let’s use the airlines as an example. The barrier to entry is very high. Insanely high. The barrier to buying some aquaculture tanks and growing your own coral. Or if the indo ban gets lifted.....getting hooked up with an exporter and bringing your own corals in is a much easier proposition. There are industries that have an even lower barrier to entry like lawn care or lawn fertilizers. It’s almost to the point that it’s cheaper to hire someone to fertilize than to do it yourself.

To summarize, the relatively low barrier to enter the market will allow for faster correcting prices. And whether you import corals from supposedly open markets like Tonga and Indo or you grow your own corals.....this industry have the ability to self correct quickly. Let’s say a 6-12 month time frame.

I will end this discussion on my last topic. Our equipment is so grossly overpriced right now. The market is ripe for a middle ground manufacturer to pull sales from AI, eco Tek, etc...