Arguing against the arguments against stuff!

[Killer Karma]

I feel the algae reactors are great for the hobby since its allowing us to go back to natural nutrient export. my tank was build 27" wide just so I could fit a 24" sump inside the stand and accommodate a small refugium. Without this planning I don't see it being simple adding on a refugium to an existing aquarium stand..

I also think they are great for the hobby in the exact situation you are describing. I was not saying they were not beneficial or useful. I was just saying that there is a propensity for people to go for the latest and "greatest" without actual need. Hence the yearly release of new I-Phones that people with the last generation must have because somehow it is that much better than their previous model.

 

[ReefBeta]

But I don't see how that makes it easier to harvest than just sticking your hand into the sump refugium and pulling a basketball size chaeto algae out.

Algae reactor is definitively harder to harvest than refugium. It's just more versatile to setup and lighting.

 

[Scott Fellman]

Might be just me but what i recieved from the last two articles was not criticism but a desire for people who do not enjoy or appreciate the hobby for the beauty of our aquariums as they are to take a second to "enjoy the moment". In particular I feel this article was not to say any one way is wrong but to be warry of inovation for inovations sake. Dont get caught up in all the hype just because something is new and probably expensive. I think as the aquarium hobby grows we will continue to see more and more gimmicks trying to make money off of our passion. Dont give up your current working fuge because someone is selling something with a bright shiny string of lights thats all the rage.

Exactly...Glad you got it...I think everyone here gets it now... The idea is to see what is working well, and to stay with it. It's to try new ideas- even if they have a basis in "old" technique. You can always apply new technology to extant ideas...Next week's piece, I will likely discuss some of the ideas Im contemplating for my next tank, and how to pull some of them off...I look forward to a vigorous and useful discussion with a little something for everyone!

Scott

 

[Scott Fellman]

Algae reactor is definitively harder to harvest than refugium. It's just more versatile to setup and lighting.

Good points. Again, nothing "wrong" with them...I'm just curious why the use of macro algae sort of fell out of favor for a while, and now, because of the development of these reactors, it's suddenly "back in vogue" to employ macro algae for nutrient export? I guess it's an example of a new way of doing an old idea, which works for the largest amount of people...I hope.

 

[chefjpaul]

Very valid points across the board on both isles.

I guess this debate would also need to include the reasoning behind them, for just nutrient export, keeping creatures, just because, etc..
I know a reactor would be more efficient in export on my tank / sump limitations area, but I like the life and the because of it, is why I keep the refugium with a few varieties of macros. If I need the export more, I would get an arid and be done with it. to me maintenance is relatively the same, same chore, different shape. same - same.................but different.;Happy

 

[Scott Fellman]

Scott, I have to agree why has so many opinions changed. If I ever have the money and opportunity to redo my tank or set up a new one It will have a good size refugium displayed next to the tank. I may even go back to sand in the main display. I am adding a waterfall algae scrubber to my system as there seems to be a consensus that they work and it is inexpensive. The scrubber can be mounted so I don't have to get down on my knees to do maintenance. The less I have to get down on the floor the better.

I love the idea of algae scrubbers!

 

[Scott Fellman]

Well I guess I'm old school I have been into salt water tanks going on 4 years. When I set up my first salt water tank I set it up with a refugium and Fiji miracle mud. My first tank was set up this way and it has been problem free for about 3 years. I have a total of 3 saltwater tanks now and I have always used a refugium with chaeto algae and Fiji miracle mud on 2 of my tanks. My third tank is a Nuvo 20 I have no way of putting miracle mud in it so I just use one of the cambers on the Nuvo 20 as a chaeto refugium. I have seen all of the new algae scrubbers and reactors. But I don't see how that makes it easier to harvest than just sticking your hand into the sump refugium and pulling a basketball size chaeto algae out. My refugium also grows hair algae so I guess I have the best of both worlds. To end this I can't imagine a chaeto reactor or a turf algae scrubber holding as much algae as my 30 gallon refugium.

I love this...and the mud!!!

 

[Scott Fellman]

Scott, you are correct "Robert Straughn" was all the "experts" rolled into one. He was keeping salt water fish in the 50s and probably the 40s. He not only kept just about every "fish" but also collected them himself with a two hose SCUBA regulator. I still have his book "The Salt Water Aquarium in the Home" and still refer to it occasionally. I never actually met him but, I read everything he wrote and in the 50s and 60s no one else was writing anything about salt water aquariums but him.

I started my tank with his recommendations of the UG filter. That turned out to be a disaster because as I said, he used it as a particle filter and a particle filter has to be removed and cleaned, not easy in a reef but not bad in those days when I had just fake corals and fish.

If I were to set up a tank from scratch today I would use my experience to make it easier. I would still use gravel, dolomite as I use now if I could get it with grains about as large as rice.
Of course I would still use a reverse UG filter as I have not found a system last any where near as long with very little maintenance. The water would be pumped down each tube very slowly, like 150GPH (as I do now with the help of a DIY manifold that allows the same amount of water to go into each tube) If it is pumped much faster than that, it clogs. If it is pumped at that speed, any detritus disintegrates about the same speed as it forms. I want some detritus because it slows down the flow just enough that anaerobic and aerobic zones form in the same place.

As for the rocks, I would do as I have been trying to do slightly unsuccessfully all these years because I didn't start it out this way. I have almost all of my rocks built up on DIY rock columns that are fairly thin so not much rock is actually touching my gravel. If I were to start this again, I would have almost no, or absolutely no rocks touching my gravel. To do that, I would build a frame out of thin DIY rock that would look exactly like rock. (almost all of my rock is like that and I like it so much I gave away all my real rock that I collected in the sea)
I would suspend my entire reef structure from above on either nylon or stainless steel cables. The cables would rise at the ends, or corners of my tank and would not be seen from the front.
If I wanted to get real crazy, I would make it so I could raise the entire structure a few inches, but If I didn't want to get to crazy, the reef structure would be suspended an inch or so above the gravel. This would not be noticeable as the bottom structure of the "rocks" would have differing heights and it would be very rough.

I would do this because a reverse UG filter needs yearly maintenance where I use my diatom filter to stir up the entire dolomite substrate. Now I can only do that in between the rocks and corals, but if I could raise the structure an inch or two, it would be more efficient.
My system works fine now but I would like that extra space. I would also use that space to look for creatures that I can't find as now sometimes I can't find a creature for weeks as it is hiding.

For the initial water fill I would use NSW if possible as I did when I filled my tank in 1971.
I would collect the water along with some mud and amphipods (as I do now) And occasionally add mud with the associated bacteria and amphipods.
I would not quarantine anything as I want my fish immune from all diseases as they are now so it would be as natural a tank as possible. To me, this is the most important step, but of course, not for everyone.
Fish come to us immune and all we need to do is allow them to keep that immunity. It has worked well for me so far and I have no need for medications, hospital or quarantine tank.

For food I would try to get live bacteria into the fish at almost every meal (as I do now) so I would still get live blackworms, live whiteworms and buy live clams if I could get them and I would freeze them myself.

The lighting would be LEDs only but I would probably have more of them than I do now as my lighting is inadequate. My LED system is water cooled and I kind of like that concept so I would again build that system.
I have no sump. but if I started a new tank I may incorporate a sump with a lighted refugium.
Now my algae scrubber is suspended above my tank. I think a sump would be easier.
If I were to keep the fish I have now which are many smaller fish such as pipefish, queen anthias, clown gobies, mandarins etc, with copperbands and some wrasses I would still hatch brine shrimp every day.
I don't particularly like predator tanks but that is a different system requiring different foods.

Of course I would still have a huge skimmer that I would use with Ozone. I have been using Ozone almost since I started the tank and don't really know if it does much good or bad, but it has worked so far, so why change?
I would use no bio pellets or dosers although I assume they could be beneficial. I dose two part by hand every week or so but I am very old school and have nothing against dosers. I would also use no water conditioners, Rowaphos, Chemi Clean or carbon and don't use them now.
I would use no bacteria in a bottle and would cycle with some dead piece of fish.
I think that's it.

Paul, so many nuggets there! And I think we could talk for days about any and all of them. Especially fascinated by your take on quarantine...Very interesting! And mud and macroalage, I think will hopefully become more and more common again. And wow, the reverse flow UGF is a very cool idea from the past...this deserves some examination by the reef community...

Wheels are turning- thanks for this really cool response!

-Scott

 

[ReefBeta]

Good points. Again, nothing "wrong" with them...I'm just curious why the use of macro algae sort of fell out of favor for a while, and now, because of the development of these reactors, it's suddenly "back in vogue" to employ macro algae for nutrient export? I guess it's an example of a new way of doing an old idea, which works for the largest amount of people...I hope.

I think there are 2 big reason for that.

First, it's very expensive to change sump. So if the initial sump was not bought inappropriate for refugium, it's almost impossible to fix. And especially for new reefers, who have no idea when planning their first tank, the chance of the tank not started correctly is pretty high.

Secondly, nano tanks and AIO are popular, and they usually don't have the space for serious refugium.

The new way solve the problem of the old idea and make it more accessible regardless of the tank's setup. Though I'm not denying being a "new" thing help its attention grabbing effect.

 

[Scott Fellman]

I think there are 2 big reason for that.

First, it's very expensive to change sump. So if the initial sump was not bought inappropriate for refugium, it's almost impossible to fix. And especially for new reefers, who have no idea when planning their first tank, the chance of the tank not started correctly is pretty high.

Secondly, nano tanks and AIO are popular, and they usually don't have the space for serious refugium.

The new way solve the problem of the old idea and make it more accessible regardless of the tank's setup. Though I'm not denying being a "new" thing help its attention grabbing effect.

Well said!

 

[Rip Van Winkle]

I think there are 2 big reason for that.

First, it's very expensive to change sump. So if the initial sump was not bought appropriate for refugium, it's almost impossible to fix. And especially for new reefers, who have no idea when planning their first tank, the chance of the tank not started correctly is pretty high.

Secondly, nano tanks and AIO are popular, and they usually don't have the space for serious refugium.

The new way solve the problem of the old idea and make it more accessible regardless of the tank's setup. Though I'm not denying being a "new" thing help its attention grabbing effect.

Clear thinking. Yeah I agree Awesome. (and your previous post too) Just replied because I think your post reflects what most people would be going through, in general.

So here's the thing, why not go completely modular? This is how I do it, personally. First thing I plan/build/buy is the sump. I like the sump in the bottom of the stand but really, it could be anywhere in your living space, if plumbing is possible.
Then, even the sump can be started in a modular way. What I do is take 15Gal tanks and drill a hole in a top corner, connect a 1.5" bulkhead to a PVC 90* and point it downwards, which flows over the top of the next 15Gal directly adjacent to it and a little lower. One tank is higher than the other so it's gravity fed. The stand base itself is made something like a staircase, allowing the tank before to sit higher than the next one. In effect, the tanks are the compartments of the sump. Have a lot of room? Use more tanks. Not so much space? Use less tanks or use smaller ones. This makes it possible to add (or remove) "sump compartments" later on.

The thing everyone will probably be thinking right now is, it's not fun to start with the sump because there's no DT cycling that will be ready to put inhabitants into. I know. So in that case, get a nano with an external overflow in the meantime?

I always have external overflows on the backs of my tanks so they can be plumbed to a sump. That makes for a modular type of setup because multiple tanks can be connected to any future sump.

I know that a sump should hold enough water so that in the event of a power failure, the sump can accept the DT water that drains down. Staying away from specifically calculating sump volume, I'm just trying to point out the idea that everything can be done in a modular way so that if some one is just starting and is not really sure where the hobby will take them going forward, it is possible to build as you go along without having to take down your existing tanks to expand.

My suggestion when buying a tank that will be meant for reef keeping (specially a nano, anything under 40Gal.) would definitely be to have an external overflow, even if it wouldn't be plumbed right from the start. My humble opinion is that aquarium mfg's should lead with basic reef tank design, meaning there should be aquariums specifically designed for reef tanks that have plumbing options built-in that make it really easy to plumb the tank to a sump in the future, without having to tear down the tank. That would make things much easier on people starting in saltwater because if one buys a simple five sided aquarium, then - yeah. Of course they will have problems expanding later on, for sure.

Then if people decide they want to get a larger tank, it can just be connected to the sump that's already in place. The nano they started out with can still be part of the system, it can be a display refugium or whatever they decide to do with it. The point being it could still be useful even if they buy a larger tank, so it's not wasted.

 

[Scott Fellman]

Clear thinking. Yeah I agree Awesome. (and your previous post too) Just replied because I think your post reflects what most people would be going through, in general.

So here's the thing, why not go completely modular? This is how I do it, personally. First thing I plan/build/buy is the sump. I like the sump in the bottom of the stand but really, it could be anywhere in your living space, if plumbing is possible.
Then, even the sump can be started in a modular way. What I do is take 15Gal tanks and drill a hole in a top corner, connect a 1.5" bulkhead to a PVC 90* and point it downwards, which flows over the top of the next 15Gal directly adjacent to it and a little lower. One tank is higher than the other so it's gravity fed. The stand base itself is made something like a staircase, allowing the tank before to sit higher than the next one. In effect, the tanks are the compartments of the sump. Have a lot of room? Use more tanks. Not so much space? Use less tanks or use smaller ones. This makes it possible to add (or remove) "sump compartments" later on.

The thing everyone will probably be thinking right now is, it's not fun to start with the sump because there's no DT cycling that will be ready to put inhabitants into. I know. So in that case, get a nano with an external overflow in the meantime?

I always have external overflows on the backs of my tanks so they can be plumbed to a sump. That makes for a modular type of setup because multiple tanks can be connected to any future sump.

I know that a sump should hold enough water so that in the event of a power failure, the sump can accept the DT water that drains down. Staying away from specifically calculating sump volume, I'm just trying to point out the idea that everything can be done in a modular way so that if some one is just starting and is not really sure where the hobby will take them going forward, it is possible to build as you go along without having to take down your existing tanks to expand.

My suggestion when buying a tank that will be meant for reef keeping (specially a nano, anything under 40Gal.) would definitely be to have an external overflow, even if it wouldn't be plumbed right from the start. My humble opinion is that aquarium mfg's should lead with basic reef tank design, meaning there should be aquariums specifically designed for reef tanks that have plumbing options built-in that make it really easy to plumb the tank to a sump in the future, without having to tear down the tank. That would make things much easier on people starting in saltwater because if one buys a simple five sided aquarium, then - yeah. Of course they will have problems expanding later on, for sure.

Then if people decide they want to get a larger tank, it can just be connected to the sump that's already in place. The nano they started out with can still be part of the system, it can be a display refugium or whatever they decide to do with it. The point being it could still be useful even if they buy a larger tank, so it's not wasted.

This is WAY too logical. You're liable to have people doing some smart moves here if they listen to that....! IS the hobby ready for this? ;Smuggrin

Seriously- good ideas and thoughts! Thanks for sharing!
-Scott

 

[naptalene]

So here's the thing, why not go completely modular? This is how I do it, personally. First thing I plan/build/buy is the sump. I like the sump in the bottom of the stand but really, it could be anywhere in your living space, if plumbing is possible.

Are you insinuating that we should plan the actual underlying fundamentals first and foremost? Surely you jest

Gadgets are awesome when they serve the purpose needed - I love them even more when they are engineered beautifully. That Pax Bellum's heatsink alone makes me weak at the knees but it would need to serve a purpose. My nano would do better with a chaeto reactor than in the sump because my sump has no partitions. So a reactor makes sense because it lets me use a natural method that would otherwise not be available to me. Is it getting crazy love because it's a gadget...... maybe, but it will still work so what the heck


PS. I'm really looking forward to articles on creating diversity in a tank. I want a squeaky clean display with a bug breeding monster in the sump

 

[Grey Guy]

I didn't know refugiums were old hat. I just started my first one over a year ago.

 

[Scrappy RN]

From a person's perspective who is new to the SW scene, the endless gadget talk is very confusing and almost decided me against even attempting the hobby. It sounded too expensive and too complicated for something that is supposed to be an enjoyable and relatively stress-relieving thing to do. I've done FW tanks for years and wanted a little more challenge. But I didn't want to buy a new car's worth of equipment and have to have a PhD to use it!

Then I talked with a friend of mine who has kept a SW tank for 30+ yrs! He said, "I have no idea what you're talking about. It's not really that complicated...." when I started asking about dosers and reactors and UV sterilizers, etc. etc. He said, "I do water changes every 2 weeks or so, trim my corals when they get out of hand, and feed my fish daily. Oh and I do have a DIY ATO!" He doesn't test anything, doesn't clean constantly, has a DSB refugium and lots of copes and such. He has T-5 lighting and a sump in his basement. Two of his fish are 20 and 30 yrs old. So obviously you don't have to have all the other stuff.

I thought, ok good. I can take the technology as far as I want to go but don't HAVE to in order to be successful. I can do this!

Three months into the water and so far so good. I do things a little different from my friend but every person has their own style. I've read everything I can, do what works for me and my system and above all else, try to keep it fun. Because if it isn't fun then exactly why would I want to do it (not to mention spend all the $$ I've spent on it, lol!?!)

I think some of the ultra-tech people who insist that theirs is the only proper way to go forget that not everyone can or is willing to do all that. They can really scare a person off by making it sound more complicated than it is. Remember, the more reef enthusiasts the more buying power for the hobby. The more buying power the more diversity of products and livestock that will be available for purchase! So if you don't care about helping others enter the hobby to be nice, at least think of it as advancing the hobby for the good of all

 

[Scrappy RN]

Oh, and I've removed the filter sock that came with my sump and made that area into a small chaeto growing farm. It's a small partitioned area right after the drain pipe area and just before the skimmer compartment. It's perfect!