Arguing against the arguments against stuff!

[Salty1962]

You never really escape it, lol;Nailbiting

Yes, when it's under your skin, it's hard to get out;Woot

 

[Ashish Patel]

Scott,

I was pretty much set on a bio pellet reactor but decided against it last minute. My theory is that a tank run on a refugium is more likely to survive long term without incident(5+ years). The path we take to get to low nutrient is equally as important. I feel other methods strip nutrients before they have any shot to be absorbed by the tank. if GFO is stripping PO to fast how will the beneficial organisms have the juice to compete with more aggressive algae?

Another thing that I am a huge fan of is a dark cryptic zone with LR for sponges and bacteria to colonize. Think about how many dark caves are in the ocean with all that life form - doing its part in feeding and keeping the reefs clean. I've seen past TOTM with large bins of LR and there growth and density of their corals was superb. I would consider making a cryptic reactor for sure.

 

[Scott Fellman]

For me the detritus thing is a long term thing. Yes it's food for something but in a lot of cases in my opinion our tanks produce too much of it in a closed system. I remove from the display tank only, and occasionally from the overflow box and sump. By occasionally I mean maybe 2-3 times from the overflow and annually from the sump. I remove lets say 2 handfuls of detritus a week. If I left that for a year it would probably be okay but in 2 years I'd have more then 100x. Since I'm doing this weekly some detritus is being eaten weekly and the "2 handfuls" is what is left over at the end of the week. Once you get to larger numbers that's when the real issues start to happen. Regardless of what you do with a sand bed it likely wont cause problems for years. Could be 2 years if you do nothing, could be 5 years if you maintain it but not well enough. This is where remote deep sand beds come in which also seem to have fallen out of favor. After a few years you can disconnect and start over. Or have 2 going at different ages. This type of long term planning is too much for most but personally I plan on having a reef until I am too old to maintain it, or longer if I can afford to have it serviced as an old man. That being said I am not in my dream scenario yet. I know I will have my current tank or one like it if something happens for the next few years. At which time I'll reevaluate my life which includes my reef tanks as they are a part of my life.

This is just what's working in my current tank. Everyone's tank is different and I probably could make it work with sand in the tank, for now though I'm happy with the results and most importantly the life in my tank is.

Perfectly summarized. And agreed...SOME detritus=not a problem. An excess of the stuff- problem...

Interesting thoughts on your long term in the setup! Thanks for sharing!

-Scott

 

[Scott Fellman]

Scott,

I was pretty much set on a bio pellet reactor but decided against it last minute. My theory is that a tank run on a refugium is more likely to survive long term without incident(5+ years). The path we take to get to low nutrient is equally as important. I feel other methods strip nutrients before they have any shot to be absorbed by the tank. if GFO is stripping PO to fast how will the beneficial organisms have the juice to compete with more aggressive algae?

Another thing that I am a huge fan of is a dark cryptic zone with LR for sponges and bacteria to colonize. Think about how many dark caves are in the ocean with all that life form - doing its part in feeding and keeping the reefs clean. I've seen past TOTM with large bins of LR and there growth and density of their corals was superb. I would consider making a cryptic reactor for sure.

Yeah I have a copy of Tyree's "Environmental Gradient" book from about 10 years ago, and he gave a lot of great ideas about sponges and tunicates in a "cryptic zone filter"....I'd love to play with that idea- I think it's pretty brilliant!

Who's on this one? Kinda like a "rubble zone" aquarium, without the light!

-Scott ;Nailbiting

 

[Paul B]

Outstanding...Had no idea Straughn was one of your mentors! This guy was like Sprung, Dilbeek, Yaiullo, Yoshi, Fenner- all rolled into one! And I agree about your take on substrate...and I suppose one could argue that sump space, plumbing, etc. are all "fair game" for recruiting biodiversity in our systems, too! I am curious- if you were setting up a new reef tank today, having a huge "database" on long term reef maintenance- how would you approach it? (not an easy question, but when you have time some day...curious!)

As always, thanks for your insights!

Scott

Scott, you are correct "Robert Straughn" was all the "experts" rolled into one. He was keeping salt water fish in the 50s and probably the 40s. He not only kept just about every "fish" but also collected them himself with a two hose SCUBA regulator. I still have his book "The Salt Water Aquarium in the Home" and still refer to it occasionally. I never actually met him but, I read everything he wrote and in the 50s and 60s no one else was writing anything about salt water aquariums but him.

I started my tank with his recommendations of the UG filter. That turned out to be a disaster because as I said, he used it as a particle filter and a particle filter has to be removed and cleaned, not easy in a reef but not bad in those days when I had just fake corals and fish.

If I were to set up a tank from scratch today I would use my experience to make it easier. I would still use gravel, dolomite as I use now if I could get it with grains about as large as rice.
Of course I would still use a reverse UG filter as I have not found a system last any where near as long with very little maintenance. The water would be pumped down each tube very slowly, like 150GPH (as I do now with the help of a DIY manifold that allows the same amount of water to go into each tube) If it is pumped much faster than that, it clogs. If it is pumped at that speed, any detritus disintegrates about the same speed as it forms. I want some detritus because it slows down the flow just enough that anaerobic and aerobic zones form in the same place.

As for the rocks, I would do as I have been trying to do slightly unsuccessfully all these years because I didn't start it out this way. I have almost all of my rocks built up on DIY rock columns that are fairly thin so not much rock is actually touching my gravel. If I were to start this again, I would have almost no, or absolutely no rocks touching my gravel. To do that, I would build a frame out of thin DIY rock that would look exactly like rock. (almost all of my rock is like that and I like it so much I gave away all my real rock that I collected in the sea)
I would suspend my entire reef structure from above on either nylon or stainless steel cables. The cables would rise at the ends, or corners of my tank and would not be seen from the front.
If I wanted to get real crazy, I would make it so I could raise the entire structure a few inches, but If I didn't want to get to crazy, the reef structure would be suspended an inch or so above the gravel. This would not be noticeable as the bottom structure of the "rocks" would have differing heights and it would be very rough.

I would do this because a reverse UG filter needs yearly maintenance where I use my diatom filter to stir up the entire dolomite substrate. Now I can only do that in between the rocks and corals, but if I could raise the structure an inch or two, it would be more efficient.
My system works fine now but I would like that extra space. I would also use that space to look for creatures that I can't find as now sometimes I can't find a creature for weeks as it is hiding.

For the initial water fill I would use NSW if possible as I did when I filled my tank in 1971.
I would collect the water along with some mud and amphipods (as I do now) And occasionally add mud with the associated bacteria and amphipods.
I would not quarantine anything as I want my fish immune from all diseases as they are now so it would be as natural a tank as possible. To me, this is the most important step, but of course, not for everyone.
Fish come to us immune and all we need to do is allow them to keep that immunity. It has worked well for me so far and I have no need for medications, hospital or quarantine tank.

For food I would try to get live bacteria into the fish at almost every meal (as I do now) so I would still get live blackworms, live whiteworms and buy live clams if I could get them and I would freeze them myself.

The lighting would be LEDs only but I would probably have more of them than I do now as my lighting is inadequate. My LED system is water cooled and I kind of like that concept so I would again build that system.
I have no sump. but if I started a new tank I may incorporate a sump with a lighted refugium.
Now my algae scrubber is suspended above my tank. I think a sump would be easier.
If I were to keep the fish I have now which are many smaller fish such as pipefish, queen anthias, clown gobies, mandarins etc, with copperbands and some wrasses I would still hatch brine shrimp every day.
I don't particularly like predator tanks but that is a different system requiring different foods.

Of course I would still have a huge skimmer that I would use with Ozone. I have been using Ozone almost since I started the tank and don't really know if it does much good or bad, but it has worked so far, so why change?
I would use no bio pellets or dosers although I assume they could be beneficial. I dose two part by hand every week or so but I am very old school and have nothing against dosers. I would also use no water conditioners, Rowaphos, Chemi Clean or carbon and don't use them now.
I would use no bacteria in a bottle and would cycle with some dead piece of fish.
I think that's it.

 

[Killer Karma]

Might be just me but what i recieved from the last two articles was not criticism but a desire for people who do not enjoy or appreciate the hobby for the beauty of our aquariums as they are to take a second to "enjoy the moment". In particular I feel this article was not to say any one way is wrong but to be warry of inovation for inovations sake. Dont get caught up in all the hype just because something is new and probably expensive. I think as the aquarium hobby grows we will continue to see more and more gimmicks trying to make money off of our passion. Dont give up your current working fuge because someone is selling something with a bright shiny string of lights thats all the rage.

 

[Killer Karma]

Have to love filter feeders, the fun of a sump : )

 

[Ashish Patel]

Have to love filter feeders, the fun of a sump : )

I'll have one of these please - can you bottle it up?;Shamefullyembarrased

 

[ReefBeta]

I actually never thought about popularity on algae reactor being an argument against refugium. I think many reefers still like to implement refugium but not successful, and algae reactor make it easy, and cheap. That's why it gets popular.

Frankly, implement refugium is not easy. You gotta have enough space under your tank, besides the big butt protein skimmer. You gotta have the correct sump with proper chamber size. You gotta have strong enough light and focus on just the refugium chamber. If one of those are not done correctly in the first place, it's very expensive to fix. Buying a new sump is multiple fold more expensive, not even mentioned the trouble of redoing plumbing. Many people just gave up on refugium because they don't start with the sump that's good for it. Algae reactor solves this problem by taking refugium out of sump, and have it scale mostly vertically. Also on lighting, you need something like Kessil H380 to get over 1000 PAR, normal CFL only provide like 1/10 of that. But wrapping an led light on algae reactor easily provide over 600 PAR because the 0 distance. And the light also don't get in the way of maintenance.

I don't disagree on your article. But you probably don't need to take popularity of algae reactor that negatively. It makes refugium easier because it take it out from the sump. Think of it like expandable modularized sump system, which happen to use for refugium. It's really an improved implementation of a good old tech. It's also big because the popularity of nano system. After putting in skimmer, filter socks, and return pump, there honestly won't be much space left in the sump. That's also why it's not catching up in commercial application. Space limit is usually not the limiting factor.

 

[Killer Karma]

I'll have one of these please - can you bottle it up?;Shamefullyembarrased

The whole sump is covered in them, must be 1000

 

[keddre]

I actually never thought about popularity on algae reactor being an argument against refugium. I think many reefers still like to implement refugium but not successful, and algae reactor make it easy, and cheap. That's why it gets popular.

Frankly, implement refugium is not easy. You gotta have enough space under your tank, besides the big *** protein skimmer. You gotta have the correct sump with proper chamber size. You gotta have strong enough light and focus on just the refugium chamber. If one of those are not done correctly in the first place, it's very expensive to fix. Buying a new sump is multiple fold more expensive, not even mentioned the trouble of redoing plumbing. Many people just gave up on refugium because they don't start with the sump that's good for it. Algae reactor solves this problem by taking refugium out of sump, and have it scale mostly vertically. Also on lighting, you need something like Kessil H380 to get over 1000 PAR, normal CFL only provide like 1/10 of that. But wrapping an led light on algae reactor easily provide over 600 PAR because the 0 distance. And the light also don't get in the way of maintenance.

I don't disagree on your article. But you probably don't need to take popularity of algae reactor that negatively. It makes refugium easier because it take it out from the sump. Think of it like expandable modularized sump system, which happen to use for refugium. It's really an improved implementation of a good old tech. It's also big because the popularity of nano system. After putting in skimmer, filter socks, and return pump, there honestly won't be much space left in the sump. That's also why it's not catching up in commercial application. Space limit is usually not the limiting factor.

I would argue that refugiums are simple to build and people are over exaggerating it. I won’t argue about the space as that’s completely true. All you truly need for a fuge that functions as an algae reactor is a nice pump (~$40), a nice sized tank (let’s say a 10 gallon for ~$15), some chaeto (~$10) and a clip on light with a CFL bulb (no more than $20). That’s around $85 vs the $200 BRS sells reactors for, (I am assuming you have PVC as that would be needed for both applications). Refugiums don’t get truly complicated until people, like me, come around and start trying to add special and feeder algae’s which need special light intergrated with live rock, blah blah blah. I think that, with like technology, people just came to believe that the newest is the greatest while it is really just like the old but different...my old flip phone had music, made calls, could play Tetris, plus unlike a smart phone I could drop it.

 

[ReefBeta]

I would argue that refugiums are simple to build and people are over exaggerating it. I won’t argue about the space as that’s completely true. All you truly need for a fuge that functions as an algae reactor is a nice pump (~$40), a nice sized tank (let’s say a 10 gallon for ~$15), some chaeto (~$10) and a clip on light with a CFL bulb (no more than $20). That’s around $85 vs the $200 BRS sells reactors for, (I am assuming you have PVC as that would be needed for both applications). Refugiums don’t get truly complicated until people, like me, come around and start trying to add special and feeder algae’s which need special light intergrated with live rock, blah blah blah. I think that, with like technology, people just came to believe that the newest is the greatest while it is really just like the old but different...my old flip phone had music, made calls, could play Tetris, plus unlike a smart phone I could drop it.

A refugium like you describe is easy besides the space it take. You can't just talk about how easy it is to build without considering how easy to integrate the built thing into the system. You can't have such a build along with your sump. You can't hang a 10 gallon tank in some random place either. If you get the fuge integrated in the sump instead, it's no longer simple and cheap. You either need to DIY it, which require design and build knowledge, or spend some good dollar to get a pre-built sump, assuming you can get over the headache of picking the right sump for your specific build.

Simply put, the problem is lack of modularization, which lead to substantially high adoption cost after initial planning stage of the tank. And the choice is all-or-nothing, more often than not, the answer to all-or-nothing is nothing when the mentioned thing is not an absolute necessity.

 

[keddre]

A refugium like you describe is easy besides the space it take. You can't just talk about how easy it is to build without considering how easy to integrate the built thing into the system. You can't have such a build along with your sump. You can't hang a 10 gallon tank in some random place either. If you get the fuge integrated in the sump instead, it's no longer simple and cheap. You either need to DIY it, which require design and build knowledge, or spend some good dollar to get a pre-built sump, assuming you can get over the headache of picking the right sump for your specific build.

Simply put, the problem is lack of modularization, which lead to substantially high adoption cost after initial planning stage of the tank. And the choice is all-or-nothing, more often than not, the answer to all-or-nothing is nothing when the mentioned thing is not an absolute necessity.

I have to agree with you on that. One of the reasons why I picked a refugium over a skimmer

 

[Bruce Burnett]

This is silly and can't possibly work. Old school sandbed using real natural creatures and algae is just insane. It is a nitrate factory, and those natural creatures will die of boredom, can't possibly work for more than 40 or 50 years with no problems.
Now if you said you wanted to add a UG filter, I would know you are nuts.
Besides, all the reefs I dove on always had glass floors.

If I ever breakdown my tank to redo rock scape I think I will go back to reverse flow undergravel filter. Will have to make my own as nobody makes them for large tanks. My first saltwater tank had it but, because of all the info out there, it was remove any undergravel filter especially with corals. When I was doing freshwater my undergravel reverse flow was done using a canister filter. The tank was with African Cichlids. I would feed earthworms, some would actually make their way under the filter and they would live under there completely submerged. Every six months or so I would stir the gravel and use a diatom filter then use the carbon powder to make the water sparkle. Never did I do a water change.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

Scott, I have to agree why has so many opinions changed. If I ever have the money and opportunity to redo my tank or set up a new one It will have a good size refugium displayed next to the tank. I may even go back to sand in the main display. I am adding a waterfall algae scrubber to my system as there seems to be a consensus that they work and it is inexpensive. The scrubber can be mounted so I don't have to get down on my knees to do maintenance. The less I have to get down on the floor the better.

 

[Ashish Patel]

I think algae reactors are great if one is adding them to an existing sump. If your starting a build thread you can easily incoperate a small compartment for algae

The whole sump is covered in them, must be 1000

What is that sponge?

 

[Ray T]

Definitely the weirdest title I've ever come up with!

It’s been a lot of fun to mix it up here and chat with some many of you over the past few weeks. It’s been a great exchange of ideas, philosophy, and camaraderie,and I couldn’t be happier.

In fact, this lively atmosphere has gotten the old gears spinning, as I contemplate my next step on the planning of my next reef aquarium. And what’s neat is that I think I’m going to incorporate a lot of “old school” thinking with “new school tech”, with more emphasis on diversity than any other reef tank I’ve worked with in a long, long time. I planned on taking a look at some of the things I’m planning on incorporating in my next tank, and when I started thinking of some of these concepts, I realized that they bring up a lot of old feelings and disagreements between reefers…perhaps you’re thinking of some of the same things,too,for your tank, and can remember the raging debates and such on them?

I figured it might be as much fun to think about the counterarguments for those…arguments to “not do that!” In fact, I like this idea so much, I think it might just be the topic of my next reef talk…Can you imagine the battles I could start?


Here are some examples…I’m just going to give you a couple and let you run with it…or run me out of town or whatever…

Well, let’s start at the bottom…literally! Substrates are, IMHO, a must have. I know all of the reasons why people don’t like sand and such in their tanks, ranging from the “nutrient sink blackhole” paranoia to “my VorTechs blow the $&(^)__-*&% out of it and create a sandstorm in my tank.” Yup- heard them. And I personally couldn’t care less. Grr…

Why is that? Because, let’s face it. Every dive trip I’ve ever been on, every reef I’ve ever swam or surfed over…had sand. Not acrylic, glass, or whatever. And the fishes, animals, and microorganisms which inhabit them have adapted to this for eons. No, of course, the counterargument is that there are no pumps, heaters, gas walls, etc, in a reef. (Let’s not waste our energies on arguing that one, okay?)

So, the reality, in my mind, is that a substrate of some sort is just the right thing to do in a biologically diverse aquarium.

I think that part of the “knock” against sandbeds was that they were often managed in such a way as to work against the system they were implemented on. I mean, if you view a sandbed as a living, breathing microcosm of its own, and, as Ron Schimek and so many others preferred for years- actually feed and maintain it, the benefits are obvious and manifold. If you don't foster biodiversity within the sandbed, keep it stirred up a little bit, over-feed, are lax on routine maintenance, don’t have sufficient water movement and nutrient export systems in place, etc… Yeah, your sandbed will show you it’s displeasure by leaching the excess nutrients, etc. into your tank. I think the "arguments" are more outmoded than the issue!

Oh- another question? Why are macro algae reactors the “big thing” of the moment? I mean- I love them…I've always loved macro algae, period. I had the opportunity to play with some of the first commercial Pax Bellum ones, and I was impressed by the growth of macro algae they produce. But really, why is everyone so crazy about them? Is it because everyone always loved chaetomorpha, but just hated floating it in a sump? Is it because they save space? Is it because…well, maybe…because it’s another gadget we can add to our system?

I think so. I think gadget people love this kind of stuff. It's like a "hack" for them, I'll bet.

REALLY, I love my fellow reefers. And I love the people who market reactors and such. But gee, how freaking difficult is it to grow Chaetomorpha in a reverse daylight area of your sump (for those who have one)? Has this always been a problem that we needed to solve? I mean, do you really need a reactor to do this? Or am I somehow missing the whole point? They do work very well, I’ll give you that…but I think they might also foster laziness for some. You know, you DO have to clean these things, and harvest the macro algae…a lot. I’m just sayin’…not “set and forget.”

It’s all about reactors and stuff these days, isn’t it? I LOVE them, but the algae reactor idea mystifies me for some reason; not sure why. Just seems like a somewhat unnecessary way of doing something that we can already do just fine. I am still waiting for a sump manufacturer to simply create an "onboard" macro algae compartment with similar lighting, and then at least it will simplify things.

Now that I've alienated every manufacturer out there, yet again...

Bonus "nice guy" consolation argument FOR them: These things kick butt. They grow the heck out of macro algae. I think they are essential equipment for propagation facilities, fish hatcheries, and large fish only tanks. And could you imagine if you ran a macro algae propagation facility? You could just use them to grow algae- super quickly..or to grow plants like mosses for freshwater applications...The commercial applications for this technology are endless, and it's beyond my comprehension why, to my knowledge, that no commercial facility has really jumped on these for the purposes above.

Back to the hobby level...

Is there any limit to this stuff? Or do we always like to try to solve "pain points" that really don't need to exist?

Is the next big thing a “refugium reactor?” Like, all of the stuff you normally just throw in a sump, you’d put it in an expensive piece of self-contained gear (ya know, another possible point of failure)….? Now, you get a pass if your system lacks a sump…but I’d hazard a guess that a very high percentage of reef systems (except maybe from the AIO crowd) have sumps associated with them these days… Of course, the counter-counter argument is that "A separate refugium" is another piece of complication...You said so yourself about the algae reactors, Fellman.."

Sigh.

So, why we're on the topic- what’s WRONG with a refugium? What did they do to fall out of favor so badly over the past 5-8 years or so? The only arguments I ever hear is that they are “bioload” and compete with the corals for available nutrients…Sort of weak, IMHO. A refugium gives today’s “minimalist” reefer who likes limited biodiversity in his display aquarium the ability to have a tremendous, if not unseen- “supporting cast” of macro and micro life forms, including plants/macroalgae, crustaceans, worms, etc., all of which literally enrich the closed aquarium system with numerous benefits.

Sure, haters will continue to make the suggestion that the extra biodiversity is really "bioload", or detracts from the prime focus of a reef aquarium for many people, that being to grow coral. I beg to differ, because production of natural food sources, nutrient processing, and biodiversity create a more "natural" system, less susceptible to the potential failings of near sterile, technology-driven systems with little "backup", and, in my opinion, reduce reliance on technological "props" and potential failure points. A little insurance policy against a biologically-impoverished system relying too much on reactors, controllers, and such is never a bad thing.

The real beauty of the refugium, in my opinion, besides the obvious benefits, like supplemental food production- is that it simply embraces natural processes and minimizes the shortfalls of some of the more aggressive approaches to aquarium husbandry. Of course, being virtually a separate aquarium in and of itself, the refugium offers yet another advantage to an aquarium it supports- additional water volume for the system . And, as we know, greater water volume translates into greater overall stability in a well-managed system. (“Hater argument” against THAT? “Get a bigger tank!” Urghh, there’s no winning…)

These concepts might be considered “out of style” in current reef keeping “culture”, which makes no real sense…Mother Nature hasn’t gone “out of style for billions of years”, and the biological processes which govern these ideas work as they have for eons…Aren’t they worth another shot in your 75 gallon “SPS” reef?

C’mon…please?

In my opinion, this is not just resurrecting an old friend- it's utilizing correct and useful technique to achieve what we all want- a healthy, thriving reef system. These ideas are just a few of many that would benefit from the latest technology (ie; controllers, electronic pumps, water testing, etc.). The arguments that embracing diversity in our aquariums is somehow “outmoded’ or locked into the 90’s or whatever, is just an excuse, IMHO to try to “bypass” the learning curve and process of understanding nature’s systems in favor of “technology” that makes life easier. If you don’t make the effort to understand the “hows and whys”, let alone the way your equipment works (read the owner's manual), the whole concept becomes sort of…lost.

Deep breath...

Okay, this whole piece was like an ugly and maybe even angry detour written by a grumpy old man…And perhaps a bit ignorant to some. But I had to share it! You know R2R is my "reef therapy" stop. I’d love to hear your "arguments against the arguments against doing stuff" in the hobby!

I promise…no further provocations…for now, at least. Next week, we’ll actually have a nuts-and-bolts piece on creating a more biologically diverse reef aquarium system!

Stay Bold. Stay determined. Stay engaged. Stay humble.


And Stay Wet.



Scott Fellman

Well I guess I'm old school I have been into salt water tanks going on 4 years. When I set up my first salt water tank I set it up with a refugium and Fiji miracle mud. My first tank was set up this way and it has been problem free for about 3 years. I have a total of 3 saltwater tanks now and I have always used a refugium with chaeto algae and Fiji miracle mud on 2 of my tanks. My third tank is a Nuvo 20 I have no way of putting miracle mud in it so I just use one of the cambers on the Nuvo 20 as a chaeto refugium. I have seen all of the new algae scrubbers and reactors. But I don't see how that makes it easier to harvest than just sticking your hand into the sump refugium and pulling a basketball size chaeto algae out. My refugium also grows hair algae so I guess I have the best of both worlds. To end this I can't imagine a chaeto reactor or a turf algae scrubber holding as much algae as my 30 gallon refugium.

 

[Killer Karma]

I think algae reactors are great if one is adding them to an existing sump. If your starting a build thread you can easily incoperate a small compartment for algae


What is that sponge?

Those are the tubes of feather dusters

 

[Ashish Patel]

Those are the tubes of feather dusters

Nice, I have feather dusters on my LR... they have white fans with some red...

 

[Ashish Patel]

I feel the algae reactors are great for the hobby since its allowing us to go back to natural nutrient export. my tank was build 27" wide just so I could fit a 24" sump inside the stand and accommodate a small refugium. Without this planning I don't see it being simple adding on a refugium to an existing aquarium stand..