As LED Lighting Develops...

[Bouncingsoul39]

Into something that can match the growth and color of it's competitors, it's list of advantages over them are shrinking. A Radion G4 Pro is 190 watts. A 8 bulb T5 HO 24" is 192 watts. Then you've got a HQI Phoenix halide at 150w, or a Radium halide at 250w. Only 60 watts difference. I won't mention a 400 watt halide because there is no comparison there.
Can a Radion G4 Pro match the color and growth of those alternatives? The selling point of LED used to be low energy consumption. That's gone now. The other selling point used to be less heat. Also, not really an issue. I've got a $22 dollar low profile, low watt eBay fan quietly eleminating all heat transfer.
So what is left? You can tweek the spectrum? I'm a busy guy. I have zero interest in worrying about my spectrum and intensity. Bulbs last a long time? That may be the last true advantage. But then consider that your LED only gives decent color and growth, so you've got to buy the next model when it comes out to get better growth and color so will you ever see any benefit from that longevity?
Local hobbyists I've talked to lately have asked me regarding my recent tank build: "Dude, why halide?" and I've replied "I just love the look and growth of a Radium." Which is absolutely true. But the other reason is that as an observer of the hobby and LED technology over the last ten years, I'm still not sold on it and as time has passed you would expect the technology to improve to the point that there would be no doubt about those benefits and we'd come to find even more of them as it improved. But that hasn't been the case, has it? A lot of people are returning to T5 HO or Halide. Or spending a ton of money trying to find a better LED fixture than what they bought first.
That's all I got. Just been thinking about this lately and wanted to start a discussion on it. Not trying to troll or tick off fans of LED lighting. So, what say you?

 

[SashimiTurtle]

One thing you need to consider of halide, that 400W is divided between light output and heat generated. More heat less light and vise versa. LEDs provide more light per watt than others because of how cool the diodes run compared to halide. Personally, I'd never put halides over a tank. Right now I think the best lighting comes from LED/T5 hybrid, with the T5s as supplemental and not the primary light source.

 

[Kershaw]

I think MH are great as I used them on my first tank, keep in mind that 190watt led dose not normally run at 190watt most people that use them run there leds between 50-75% of out put.
I agree that messing with spectrum is annoying for some but fun for others.
Also i think that allot of the people that switch from Mh to leds switch back to MH because they where impatient, not all but some.
I think it is like anything else in this hobby is "what works for you" salt for example, people chase the next great salt all the time.
Some people have amazing tanks with cheap salt and others have terrible tanks, same goes for expensive salt.
When I switched from MH to leds, I was less then impressed. turns out my issue was chemistry not the lights not sure why my kh and cal grew coral fine under MH but led. Once I changed my kh and cal to a little bit higher, growth on everything was just as good as my mh

But I agree that led t5 is the best option out there

 

[rtparty]

I agree with almost every part of the OP. I went the LED route for years. Tried way too many fixtures and spent far too much time messing around looking for that "perfect" setup. My new tank is a GMann MH/T5 combo and I absolutely love it.

Are there cons? Of course there are but the pros far outweigh them for me

 

[Rufus’ goofs]

I think it's very valuable to hear everyone's opinions as well as what they're using and why it works or doesn't work for them.

I've got t5s with about 20-30 watts of leds for supplement, and I really like it. It does very well for the few corals I have in the tank. I think the t5s are what's really growing the corals but I really love the depth the tank gets from the leds. I'm also considering adding more actininc and UV leds in attempt for a little more color in them, but I get all the growth I need regardless.
I also wouldn't change it out. I love seeing just the leds, and the crispness the t5s bring when the come on later in the day. I wouldn't ditch the t5s on the display for anything.

HOWEVER:
I have a small AIO tank I've decided to use for inverts and frags. A black box led just about covers the display section perfectly, ( display is 16 1/2" x 11 1/2") so I hung one over it.
I bet that if I really cranked that baby I could get better Growth than in my display, just based on amount of light I could get into it.
So why go metal halide or t5 on the small tank instead of really really powerful and comparable in price led set ups? Not necessarily a radion, or kessil.
But now I don't have to replace bulbs for the frag tank. It just feels like a better option for this application.

I know that there are a lot of other factors as well. But it's important to evaluate which is the better option, for what scenario and which results are desired.

Side note:
I can't wait to try metal halides someday!

 

[3mm3]

I agree with almost every part of the OP. I went the LED route for years. Tried way too many fixtures and spent far too much time messing around looking for that "perfect" setup. My new tank is a GMann MH/T5 combo and I absolutely love it.

Are there cons? Of course there are but the pros far outweigh them for me

Back to halides on my new setup too. Hamilton 250w cayman sun pendants.
Have been running led for last 6 years and decided to swap back. Best lighting decision I've made in six years.

 

[atoll]

You mention heat and a fan on your metal halide as if heat is no longer an issue, but where does that heat go esp in summer? You can have all the fans you want even a chiller but unless you vent that wasted inefficient heat out of the room then it can still be an issue.

 

[3mm3]

You mention heat and a fan on your metal halide as if heat is no longer an issue, but where does that heat go esp in summer? You can have all the fans you want even a chiller but unless you vent that wasted inefficient heat out of the room then it can still be an issue.

For my setup heat is not an issue. If someone keeps their house hot indoors than I can see the halides adding to it. For me I keep the indoor Temps nice and comfortable. On the larger tank I do not need fans. However With smaller tanks such as my biocube I do run a small fan to prevent any heat transfer. And quite honestly kids coming in and out of the house constantly cause way more home heating problems.

 

[teller]

If you love your halide why starting another war thread about how bad is the led lighting?
You know where these kind of threads end up, I still don't get it.
Good luck with your halide...

 

[3mm3]

If you love your halide why starting another war thread about how bad is the led lighting?
You know where these kind of threads end up, I still don't get it.
Good luck with your halide...

He may be trying to get past all the marketing hype and help others out?? I agree led does grow coral and the right setups do it good.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

You mention heat and a fan on your metal halide as if heat is no longer an issue, but where does that heat go esp in summer? You can have all the fans you want even a chiller but unless you vent that wasted inefficient heat out of the room then it can still be an issue.

The heat rises as it tends to do. We happen to have vaulted high ceilings so that helps. With a decent size living room and some windows open if it is cool outside, I don't notice any change in temp from the lighting. If it gets hot enough out, we will have the A/C running and removing as much hot air from the house that way. I'd imagine if you are in a small apartment or the like then your experience may differ. With that said though, a Radion G4 Pro or any other active cooled LED built in fan will also be putting heat out into the air around it.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Personally, I actually dislike the customization potential of LED spectrum. I don't want to spend money on a PAR meter to make sure I'm not frying my corals alive. I also don't really care to mess with every single color channel individually. Give me 10,000K, 14,000K, 20,000K, and maybe 20,000K + actinic or 25,000K settings and I'm happy. As a side note, this is why I like the Kessils so much. Twist a knob to make it more or less blue. That's it. I also have no interest in setting spectrum from my phone or a web browser. There's no need for that added complexity and cost in my opinion. Give me a little read out on the fixture, or an external controller that I can hook up to make adjustments, then unhook when I'm done. My dislike of many of the current LED products aside, it's simply untrue to say that LEDs aren't able to match the coloration and growth of MH or T5s. There are far too many successful SPS tanks out there lit by only LEDs to make that claim.

It's also incomplete to simply compare a G4 and an 8-bulb T5 fixture on power consumption alone. You're not factoring in efficiency (in other words, how much of that power taken in is converted to actual light instead of heat). You're also not factoring in fixture cost. A Radeon G4 is an expensive light to be sure ($650/$800 respectively), but a comparable 24" T5 fixture is not that much cheaper ($504 for an 8 bulb ATI fixture on BRS at the time of this writing). Then, you have to factor in bulb replacement costs. Eight 24" T5 bulbs from ATI cost $160 ($19.99 each on BRS at the time of this writing). If you replace them annually, after 4 years T5s will have cost you an additional $640 in this scenario. More if you have a longer fixture that takes longer and more expensive bulbs.

It's also unfair to say that you must upgrade to the latest and greatest LED fixture, like it's a cell phone. New LED fixtures do have more features and usually better color spectrum, but that doesn't mean the old LEDs will suddenly no longer grow corals. The AI Sol Blue was one of the first commercial viable LED fixture in the hobby. It's downright primitive by today's standards, only having cool white, blue and royal blue LEDs. Yet, there are still amazing tanks out there today lit by these primitive lights. My QT tank is lit by an old AI Sol Blue, and the orange monti cap I have in QT started showing visible growth only a week or so after acclimation.

It's just not accurate to say that LEDs are inferior because there are competing lighting technologies out there that consume similar amounts of power. It's not just about power consumption. There are way too many other caveats to consider. If you prefer to use other light sources than LEDs, that's fine. You should use what you like and works best for you. But just because a light is best in your situation doesn't mean it's the best light out there. Every situation and tank is unique, and everyone has their own preferences.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

@chipmunkofdoom2 I never meant to imply that you HAVE to upgrade LED. My point is that the marketing and selling points that were originally put forth to hobbyists on why they need to switch over to LED are proving themselves to be not as significant as they were promised to be in the long run as LED lighting has developed. I'd like for hobbyists to not feel bad or feel that their tanks are less than if they are running T5HO or Halides instead of the latest LEDs. As I said, people in the hobby keep looking at me sideways when I tell them I just put a Radium over my tank.
I totally agree that people should absolutely use what works best for them, and also most importantly, whatever they like and enjoy. But I cannot help to notice that many people have left LED and gone back to T5HO and Halide and also I see many LED fixtures for sale across many forums so it seems that people are either feeling pressured to buy the next hot thing in LED or not happy with the results they are getting from LED.

 

[teller]

@chipmunkofdoom2 I never meant to imply that you HAVE to upgrade LED. My point is that the marketing and selling points that were originally put forth to hobbyists on why they need to switch over to LED are proving themselves to be not as significant as they were promised to be in the long run as LED lighting has developed. I'd like for hobbyists to not feel bad or feel that their tanks are less than if they are running T5HO or Halides instead of the latest LEDs. As I said, people in the hobby keep looking at me sideways when I tell them I just put a Radium over my tank.
I totally agree that people should absolutely use what works best for them, and also most importantly, whatever they like and enjoy. But I cannot help to notice that many people have left LED and gone back to T5HO and Halide and also I see many LED fixtures for sale across many forums so it seems that people are either feeling pressured to buy the next hot thing in LED or not happy with the results they are getting from LED.

I shouldn't but I have to reply...maybe I regret later....
You say that people are looking sideways because you prefer halides.
This is new from me, nobody says halides are bad, just the opposite!
I think you have a conspiracy theory problem and because of that you started this thread which the sarcastic title tells all(very unfortunate title).
Most people say halides are very good! And they are!
I think you have a different problem...just my opinion!

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

@chipmunkofdoom2 I never meant to imply that you HAVE to upgrade LED.

If you meant to imply something different, then I understand. But what you actually said is that reefers need to upgrade to the latest and greatest to get better color and growth. Which is simply not true:

Bulbs last a long time? That may be the last true advantage. But then consider that your LED only gives decent color and growth, so you've got to buy the next model when it comes out to get better growth and color so will you ever see any benefit from that longevity?

Full disclosure, I'm no LED fanboy. In order to rule out potential causes of trouble in my tank, I went from LEDs back to the tried-and-true T5. I'm definitely with you that the reefing hobby seems to have an infatuation with LEDs. I'm also with you that some of the marketing hype is a bit ridiculous. I'm also with you in that I don't want all of the adjustability current LEDs have to offer. I'm also with you that T5s and MH still work just fine, even if they're not quite as trendy as LEDs.

If your message is that new reefers shouldn't be so quick to pass up these tried-and-true methods of lighting a reef tank, then I agree. This is a really important discussion to have because these older methods of lighting reef tanks are still incredibly effective. However, you can't deny that LEDs have some legitimate advantages over MH and T5. You also can't deny that MH have some legitimate advantages over T5 and LED, and that T5s have some legitimate advantages over LEDs and MH. Every single lighting technology has their strengths and weaknesses, and they are all perfectly capable of growing beautiful captive reefs. At the end of the day, you need to choose what's best for your tank based on your specific situation, and everyone else will choose what's best for them and their tanks.

 

[happyhourhero]

I think if I switched from LED to MH and fell even more in love with my tank, my wife would leave me.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

If you meant to imply something different, then I understand. But what you actually said is that reefers need to upgrade to the latest and greatest to get better color and growth. Which is simply not true

When I said "you've got to" I didn't meant that literally. Because LED lighting is still evolving and new manufacturers, lenses, etc are popping up frequently, and you've got Ecotech, AI and others releasing new models, the hobbyists may feel like they have to continually upgrade to stay at the cutting edge of technology with the hope of improvement over the last one.

If your message is that new reefers shouldn't be so quick to pass up these tried-and-true methods of lighting a reef tank, then I agree. This is a really important discussion to have because these older methods of lighting reef tanks are still incredibly effective. However, you can't deny that LEDs have some legitimate advantages over MH and T5.

Thanks for that. I do think its a good discussion to have. So lets continue to discuss it constructively as we have been. Before I bought my 250 watt Radium setup for my tank I read a ton of reviews on practically every LED out there, with the exception of the "ebay china black boxes". I couldn't see any advantage other than aesthetics of the fixture and the compact size of them. I had no problem spending the money on one but nothing I read about them really motivated enough to pull the trigger. But, that was from my personal perspective and as you said, everyone should choose what is best for their situation.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

@teller Maybe I shouldn't reply either because your tone sounds trollish but I suspect English is not your first language so I'll give you a chance. My title wasn't meant to be sarcastic, but it was meant to draw people into the thread and into discussion. Do you really believe that in this point within the reefing community that metal halide and t5ho are considered good, viable options for lighting? My opinion is that they are viewed as once effective, but now obsolete technology that is not "in favor".
I don't know if I have a conspiracy problem as you said, but I do think too much, and observe much. As I've come back to the hobby after a two year hiatus I've spoken with several reefers and as I've said here, they were confused and surprised that anyone would actually choose to run a metal halide on a reef in this day and age and that is what I am challenging.

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

@happyhourhero Ahaha. Luckily, my wife prefers me playing with the tank much more than sitting on the couch gaming. At least for now. But she knows it's expensive hobby, so I'm trying to space out the purchases.

 

[Mark Gray]

I saw the post so here is my input, I have done this for over 35 years now. I had MH then I did T5's I have lived in Georgia, and Texas, most of the time. To me both MH and T5's produce to much heat in the summer and the AC has to work harder to compensate. Yes they do both grow great but I really like my LED's once you get them set leave them alone and they look great and grow well and they are cooler than the MH or the T5's