ATS vs Cheato Refugium (Do they pull out Trace Elements)

[Reefahholic]

What’s your experience with algae pulling out trace elements?

Which elements do they pull out the most?

Does one pull more than the other and why?

What does your ICP consistently show?

 

[jda]

It depends, but iron for chaeto and manganese for most other macros. This is not usually a big deal since most corals do not seem to notice, but your chaeto or macro will slow down unless you change water or dose.

If you keep a calcareous algae, like Halimeda, they use a good amount of carbonate and calcium.

 

[PatW]

Chaeto is reputed to suck up some micronutrients. I have heard it is especially iron and manganese. I have had cheato grow just fine and then die off. I tried dosing my own DYI iron and manganese without luck. I bought chaetogro and dose that and the chaeto is fine as long as it has light that is competitive with the display and there is some nitrate and phosphate in the water.

 

[Reefahholic]

It depends, but iron for chaeto and manganese for most other macros. This is not usually a big deal since most corals do not seem to notice, but your chaeto or macro will slow down unless you change water or dose.

If you keep a calcareous algae, like Halimeda, they use a good amount of carbonate and calcium.

I hear that an ATS grows algae more efficiently than Cheato and thus uses more traces. It can deplete elements that Cheato typically doesn’t or will die w/o. Elements like Copper, Nickel, Tin, Iron, Manganese, etc.


Has anybody here noticed this on ICP with ATS? Or with Cheato Fuge…

 

[Reefahholic]

Chaeto is reputed to suck up some micronutrients. I have heard it is especially iron and manganese. I have had cheato grow just fine and then die off. I tried dosing my own DYI iron and manganese without luck. I bought chaetogro and dose that and the chaeto is fine as long as it has light that is competitive with the display and there is some nitrate and phosphate in the water.

What’s in the Cheato Grow. I’m assuming Iron would be the primary ingredient?

 

[Reefahholic]

Is Chris Meckley here on R2R or ACI Aquaculture? He’s been running large ATS’s for 3 years now.

 

[jda]

I have no opinion on which is more efficient. I imagine that it depends on who you ask where the manufacturers of ATS systems will tell you something different than chaeto reactor makers, or users? In the end, I imagine that either work pretty well. I remove a bucket full of chaeto ever week or two and it does a good job for me, but I don't have much of a basis for comparison.

I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that you were asking about elements being used up for the detriment of coral, so I don't really care about metals. Most macro will use up some of these, but I have never noticed.

All of this said, I do change water and many elements get replenished. Perhaps the DSR folks have some guidance on what else to supplement if you have massive macro amounts since they don't change water on the regular?

 

[Logical_Plan]

What’s in the Cheato Grow. I’m assuming Iron would be the primary ingredient?

Guaranteed Analysis​

0-0-1.30; Potassium (K) as Soluble Potash (K2O) (min) 1.30%; Boron 0.009%; Carbon 0.005%; Calcium 0.14%; Chlorine 0.39%; Cobalt 0.0004%; Iron 0.1%; Magnesium 0.4%; Manganese 0.0475%; Molybdenum 0.004%; Sulfur 0.16%; Zinc 0.002%.

Source:

Brightwell Aquatics - ChaetoGro

www.brightwellaquatics.com

 

[X-37B]

I loosly follow DSR but run a carx and do 10% WC once a month that removes the stuff you cant test for. Systems just look better after one. I went 18 months without one.
I dose DSR EZ trace from day one on both systems. I use mag and K levels to determine the required dose. I have never run an ICP test though.
My recent remote fuge setups algae is growing quite fast. I have also reduce po4 reducing media in half. I used to replace media every 4 days and now its over 2 weeks.

 

[jda]

If you added some Ferrion, Flourish, or the like to that, you probably would be all set?

I just add Ferrion and none of my corals have any issues, but I only really keep acropora and clams... no idea if LPS, softies and stuff need any of that other stuff.

This is probably too complicated and I am not sure if it works with traces, but with building blocks complex hosts can recycle for their zoox and tissue and only need new to build further. Since the corals are more adapted to survive, it seems likely, though anecdotal, that algae most suffers first. You see this in tanks where macro and chaeto falls apart and the corals are better off.

 

[Pistondog]

What’s your experience with algae pulling out trace elements?

Which elements do they pull out the most?

Does one pull more than the other and why?

What does your ICP consistently show?

I harvest 1/2 to 1/3 chaeto every month. Icp showed low iodine, which I now add weekly. I'd be surprised if one algae pulled substantially more than another.

 

[Reefahholic]

I have no opinion on which is more efficient. I imagine that it depends on who you ask where the manufacturers of ATS systems will tell you something different than chaeto reactor makers, or users? In the end, I imagine that either work pretty well. I remove a bucket full of chaeto ever week or two and it does a good job for me, but I don't have much of a basis for comparison.

I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that you were asking about elements being used up for the detriment of coral, so I don't really care about metals. Most macro will use up some of these, but I have never noticed.

All of this said, I do change water and many elements get replenished. Perhaps the DSR folks have some guidance on what else to supplement if you have massive macro amounts since they don't change water on the regular?

If you’re doing water changes you’re most likely replenishing these elements (if they’re low or depleted) depending on the amount and frequency.

Both methods work well, but it would be nice to zero in on just how much the ATS is actually depleting elements. Of course it would depend on system volume, scrubber size, coral mass, etc.

 

[Reefahholic]

Guaranteed Analysis​

0-0-1.30; Potassium (K) as Soluble Potash (K2O) (min) 1.30%; Boron 0.009%; Carbon 0.005%; Calcium 0.14%; Chlorine 0.39%; Cobalt 0.0004%; Iron 0.1%; Magnesium 0.4%; Manganese 0.0475%; Molybdenum 0.004%; Sulfur 0.16%; Zinc 0.002%.

Source:

Brightwell Aquatics - ChaetoGro

www.brightwellaquatics.com

Didn’t realize there was that much in there. Does it work pretty well?

 

[Reefahholic]

I loosly follow DSR but run a carx and do 10% WC once a month that removes the stuff you cant test for. Systems just look better after one. I went 18 months without one.
I dose DSR EZ trace from day one on both systems. I use mag and K levels to determine the required dose. I have never run an ICP test though.
My recent remote fuge setups algae is growing quite fast. I have also reduce po4 reducing media in half. I used to replace media every 4 days and now its over 2 weeks.

Going that route…I’m sure the majority of the elements are doing pretty well, but you’ll still have some low or depleted levels. You should grab at least one ICP to see where the levels are actually at so you can fine tune the system even more.

 

[Reefahholic]

I harvest 1/2 to 1/3 chaeto every month. Icp showed low iodine, which I now add weekly. I'd be surprised if one algae pulled substantially more than another.

Iodine is one of those that is consistently low if you’re not supplementing frequently. I think the ATS is more efficient because Chris Meckley at ACI has been running them for 3 years on his large systems and has a physicist and marine scientist on board there who are monitoring minor and traces. They realized that the ATS is pulling out more than originally thought which is fine if you’re supplementing, but at the time they weren’t, and were starting to see growth slow down. It makes sense if they are more efficient that they will uptake more elements than Cheato. I think one reason they might be more efficient is because for their size they are work horses. Most people don’t have large refugiums due to lack of space, so it could just be a size limitation.

 

[X-37B]

Going that route…I’m sure the majority of the elements are doing pretty well, but you’ll still have some low or depleted levels. You should grab at least one ICP to see where the levels are actually at so you can fine tune the system even more.

I have been wantingto get one and its a good reminder and would be nice to know the levels.
I do test for iodine and its always above 0 and useually .06. Last test 11/25 and .06.
I dont think my system needs any fine tuning though, lol.

 

[X-37B]

Iodine is one of those that is consistently low if you’re not supplementing frequently. I think the ATS is more efficient because Chris Meckley at ACI has been running them for 3 years on his large systems and has a physicist and marine scientist on board there who are monitoring minor and traces. They realized that the ATS is pulling out more than originally thought which is fine if you’re supplementing, but at the time they weren’t, and were starting to see growth slow down. It makes sense if they are more efficient that they will uptake more elements than Cheato. I think one reason they might be more efficient is because for their size they are work horses. Most people don’t have large refugiums due to lack of space, so it could just be a size limitation.

I did not have the room for an ATS, lol, so I setup a 30g remote fuge on my 120. I agree most in sump fuges are to small to be efficient and I dont want light anywhere near my sump.

 

[Pistondog]

Iodine is one of those that is consistently low if you’re not supplementing frequently. I think the ATS is more efficient because Chris Meckley at ACI has been running them for 3 years on his large systems and has a physicist and marine scientist on board there who are monitoring minor and traces. They realized that the ATS is pulling out more than originally thought which is fine if you’re supplementing, but at the time they weren’t, and were starting to see growth slow down. It makes sense if they are more efficient that they will uptake more elements than Cheato. I think one reason they might be more efficient is because for their size they are work horses. Most people don’t have large refugiums due to lack of space, so it could just be a size limitation.

I guess I misunderstood the question, which I read as one algae vs another algae. Certainly if one system, ats vs refugium, produces more, it will deplete all nutrients faster.

 

[Logical_Plan]

Didn’t realize there was that much in there. Does it work pretty well?

I am only using it right now to grow some chaeto in a rock cycling system. Others have posted really good reviews of coral perking up after supplementing. It seems chaeto is a pig on trace elements if you are using it to control NO3 and PO4 and it is growing like crazy. I haven't seen ICP to confirm yet.

I will have baseline ICP and then 3 month ICP intervals to support once my main display is up and running in Jan.

 

[Reefahholic]

I am only using it right now to grow some chaeto in a rock cycling system. Others have posted really good reviews of coral perking up after supplementing. It seems chaeto is a pig on trace elements if you are using it to control NO3 and PO4 and it is growing like crazy. I haven't seen ICP to confirm yet.

I will have baseline ICP and then 3 month ICP intervals to support once my main display is up and running in Jan.

Nice, be sure to post up with some of your results!