Bad experiences with nitrate and/or phosphate dosing

[BigJohnny]

Hey Reefers,

Nitrate and phosphate dosing has become quite popular for a variety of reasons, and most people are looking for success stories (there are many out there), but I want to hear the failures.

Please share any negative experiences you have had with nitrate and/or phosphate dosing. Try to be as thorough as possible in explaining how everything played out and also what your goals were in the first place (better color, faster growth, no cyano, no dino, or just didnt want undetectable) Also please specify the formulation(s) used.

I think this could be a valuable resource for people considering trying either, if enough people participate.

Thanks!

 

[Phelipe's Ocean]

This is just my person opinion and thoughts but first off I personally never heard long term success with dosing those to, if your needing to dose phosphates or nitrates dosing them is just placing a bandaid over the problem. It is like some people that have ammonia/ water parameter issues a put a ton of prime to “fix” the problem without figuring out whats causing it. I tried it out in a 30 cube I set up about 6 months ago. Started dosing both because my levels were totally bottomed out to the point where my corals were not opening up and were starving even with supplements. FIRST problem is stability, trying to keep phosphates and nitrates at the same numbers is so difficult, even if you go to the extent of getting a dosing pump it wont be easy. It was a simple fix really, if my levels were bottomed out I wasnt producing enough so I started to up the feeding but the EXACT same amount everyday to stop levels from fluctuating. Dry foods arent the best for this because the redfeild ratio is off but in natrual foods like mysis and frozens they are very balanced. After I started feeding one full cube a day in a 30 cube my levels started rising BUT i didnt mess with them or try to get them lower I let them balance out by themselves. Today and ever since then my Phosphate has been 0.2 and nitrates never leave 10-12. Stability in a reef tank is MUCH more important than chasing after low levels. Every reefer you see that says “I stopped chasing levels a long time ago” you can bet they have stunning tanks. Take sanjays reef for example his nitrates are pushing 50! But they are stable there and I beleive thats what counts. I mean just look at his tank my two cents

 

[BigJohnny]

This is just my person opinion and thoughts but first off I personally never heard long term success with dosing those to, if your needing to dose phosphates or nitrates dosing them is just placing a bandaid over the problem. It is like some people that have ammonia/ water parameter issues a put a ton of prime to “fix” the problem without figuring out whats causing it. I tried it out in a 30 cube I set up about 6 months ago. Started dosing both because my levels were totally bottomed out to the point where my corals were not opening up and were starving even with supplements. FIRST problem is stability, trying to keep phosphates and nitrates at the same numbers is so difficult, even if you go to the extent of getting a dosing pump it wont be easy. It was a simple fix really, if my levels were bottomed out I wasnt producing enough so I started to up the feeding but the EXACT same amount everyday to stop levels from fluctuating. Dry foods arent the best for this because the redfeild ratio is off but in natrual foods like mysis and frozens they are very balanced. After I started feeding one full cube a day in a 30 cube my levels started rising BUT i didnt mess with them or try to get them lower I let them balance out by themselves. Today and ever since then my Phosphate has been 0.2 and nitrates never leave 10-12. Stability in a reef tank is MUCH more important than chasing after low levels. Every reefer you see that says “I stopped chasing levels a long time ago” you can bet they have stunning tanks. Take sanjays reef for example his nitrates are pushing 50! But they are stable there and I beleive thats what counts. I mean just look at his tank my two cents

Thanks for the post bud. Just what I was looking for.

Another thing I want to mention (to everyone not you) is I'd like people to share their experiences but I think it would be best if people dont respond to specific posts and end up starting a back n forth with each other.

The reason I say that is because your post was very long (great) but because of that there are many things someone could agree or disagree with. It can be easy to get sidetracked and since this is a controversial topic, even more so. I think the thread will have the most value as a sort of "negative reviews" of nitrate or phosphate dosing, rather than a debate on the topic.

People can and should ask questions etc but please let's not debate, there are plenty of other threads for that.

Thanks!

So my questions are:

1. Did you see any positive effects while dosing?

2. What negative effects did you see, if any, or did you just not like the instability?

3. What formulations of nitrate and phosphate did you use?

 

[Phelipe's Ocean]

1. I didnt see any positive effects it just seemed to make the situation worse because of how much it fluctuated. First few hours phoephates would skyrocket which is not good and they would all be zeroed out by the end of the day instability like that is never good
2. Negative effects were browning, bad PE, algae problems, and in general a ticked off tank
3. I used green leafs nitrate product and Phosphate RX

 

[Greenstreet.1]

1. I didnt see any positive effects it just seemed to make the situation worse because of how much it fluctuated. First few hours phoephates would skyrocket which is not good and they would all be zeroed out by the end of the day instability like that is never good
2. Negative effects were browning, bad PE, algae problems, and in general a ****** off tank
3. I used green leafs nitrate product and Phosphate RX

What was you using to dose Po4 ? Cause phosphate Rx reduces Po4.

 

[BigJohnny]

1. I didnt see any positive effects it just seemed to make the situation worse because of how much it fluctuated. First few hours phoephates would skyrocket which is not good and they would all be zeroed out by the end of the day instability like that is never good
2. Negative effects were browning, bad PE, algae problems, and in general a ****** off tank
3. I used green leafs nitrate product and Phosphate RX

Isnt phosphate RX lanthanum chloride?

 

[Phelipe's Ocean]

What was you using to dose Po4 ? Cause phosphate Rx reduces Po4.

Ah silly me haha I was thinking about a different product. I was using brightwell aquatics Neophos

 

[Phelipe's Ocean]

Isnt phosphate RX lanthanum chloride?

Yes my mistake im thinking of a different productZ the correct product is NeoPhos

 

[BigJohnny]

Yes my mistake im thinking of a different productZ the correct product is NeoPhos

Thanks for sharing. Do you remember how much of each you were dosing and how often? Not mL but ppm equivalent?

 

[Phelipe's Ocean]

Thanks for sharing. Do you remember how much of each you were dosing and how often? Not mL but ppm equivalent?

Unfortunatley I dont remember exact numbers but I was dosing in the morning and in the evening, it came out to about 12 hour increments. I was dosing quite a lot though trying to get those levels up but I was scared I was gonna end up causing a bigger problem in the tank.

 

[BigJohnny]

Unfortunatley I dont remember exact numbers but I was dosing in the morning and in the evening, it came out to about 12 hour increments. I was dosing quite a lot though trying to get those levels up but I was scared I was gonna end up causing a bigger problem in the tank.

Ok, so you were dosing trying to hit a number not dosing a consistent amount daily. Thanks. I'd say that covers it.

Anyone else want to share?

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

This is just my person opinion and thoughts but first off I personally never heard long term success with dosing those to, if your needing to dose phosphates or nitrates dosing them is just placing a bandaid over the problem. It is like some people that have ammonia/ water parameter issues a put a ton of prime to “fix” the problem without figuring out whats causing it.

These are two very different scenarios. Having any ammonia present in your water is symptom of a problem. The problem is that you have ineffective or incomplete biological filtration. This is a tank-crashing issue and cannot be managed long-term by adding something. It must be solved by addressing the root problem, which is a malfunctioning biological filter.

Having low dissolved nutrients, on the other hand, is different. It's not technically a symptom in that it's not a result of a problem. Low nutrients usually are a result of low bio-load, careful feeding, effective husbandry or filtration, or some combination of these factors. None of the aforementioned factors are problems to be "solved," and most of them are desirable to some extent.

Being nitrate or phosphate deficient is a very specific condition in a reef tank, and any dosing of nitrate or phosphate must be done with knowledge and care. That does not mean that nobody should attempt to increase dissolved nutrients by adding nitrates or phosphates.

 

[BigJohnny]

These are two very different scenarios. Having any ammonia present in your water is symptom of a problem. The problem is that you have ineffective or incomplete biological filtration. This is a tank-crashing issue and cannot be managed long-term by adding something. It must be solved by addressing the root problem, which is a malfunctioning biological filter.

Having low dissolved nutrients, on the other hand, is different. It's not technically a symptom in that it's not a result of a problem. Low nutrients usually are a result of low bio-load, careful feeding, effective husbandry or filtration, or some combination of these factors. None of the aforementioned factors are problems to be "solved," and most of them are desirable to some extent.

Being nitrate or phosphate deficient is a very specific condition in a reef tank, and any dosing of nitrate or phosphate must be done with knowledge and care. That does not mean that nobody should attempt to increase dissolved nutrients by adding nitrates or phosphates.

Hey bud, I don't know if you saw but I said I'd prefer if there was no back and forth here, challenging of others, debate etc. Plenty of places for that on this forum but that's not what I'm trying to achieve here or why I created the thread. If you could please refrain from continuing the debate further (or take it to pm or another thread), I would really appreciate it.

Just looking for detailed accounts of bad experiences of nitrate and phosphate dosing.

Thanks!

 

[HBL]

I have successfully dosing nitrate for a while now, but did ran into a problem earlier this year. I've decided to dose Spectracide Stump Remover (potassium nitrate) to raise the level of nitrate, since mine was nearly undetectable with the Salifert test kit. I have success in dosing Spectracide before, so i wasn't nervous about dosing it. However, I might have came across a bottle that contained impurities, since the company does not guarantee the purity to their product.

The result was that most of my montis and smooth skin acros was p-i-s-s-e-d off. The skin of the stressed acros look as if they have been left out of the water for more than 30 mins. The red dragon rtn'ed almost overnight on the third day after the initial dose. I immediately did a 100 gallon water changed and repeated the water changes every 3 days until things are looking better.

So if any of you are dosing Nitrate using Spectracide Stump Remover, I would recommend against it. I since have switched to the reagent/food grade Sodium Nitrate and have seen better color and growth in corals. The reason I dosed nitrate is for optimal color in corals, and also if I can keep the phosphate/nitrate levels balanced then I wouldn't have cyano problems. I found a sweet spot for my tank that if I feed my tank 4 cubes of mysis, some pellets and a nori sheet everyday. My phosphate level is within the 0.03 - 0.08 ppm range, then if I dosed my sodium nitrate solution 15 ml twice a day to keep the level around 5 ppm. My corals are happy and cyano will go away. If i forgot to dose nitrate for a few days and/or feed the tank more, then cyano will come back on the sand bed like clockwork. I have never dose phosphate before, whenever I feel like my tank is lacking in phosphate I just up my feeding with more frozen food. Below is info on how I calculate my nitrate solution if anyone is interested.

I used the calculator in the link below to make my dosing solution.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm

Total gallons of water:
300 (dt) + 90 (frag tank) + 15 (top refugium) + 50 (bottom sump) = 455
Minus the rock displacement. I'm ballparking the number to be around 400 gallon even (very rough estimate).

I want to mix the full bottle of the sodium nitrate (4 oz) to a gallon of water. According to Randy Holmes, sodium nitrate is 16% more potent than potassium nitrate, so I chose the potassium nitrate option in the calculator and add 16% more to the total grams. 113+113×0.16=131.08

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Hey bud, I don't know if you saw but I said I'd prefer if there was no back and forth here, challenging of others, debate etc. Plenty of places for that on this forum but that's not what I'm trying to achieve here or why I created the thread. If you could please refrain from continuing the debate further (or take it to pm or another thread), I would really appreciate it.

Just looking for detailed accounts of bad experiences of nitrate and phosphate dosing.

Thanks!

If you want to create a list of instances where nitrate/phosphate dosing caused adverse reactions, I'm totally fine with that. If you want to hear what reefers dosed, how much, how often, and the observed negative outcomes, I think that's a great idea. There's not much that can be debated about what a reefer doses, how much they dosed, and what they think they saw as a reaction.

I don't think, however, it's appropriate to create a thread in which anyone can say anything they want about a given topic and be free from critique or discussion, so long as they describe only a single viewpoint of that topic. Members should not come here and intentionally junk up your thread with irrelevant posts. But, I don't think that any post in this thread should be immune from critique and discussion simply because it meets the criteria that you set.

 

[BigJohnny]

I have successfully dosing nitrate for a while now, but did ran into a problem earlier this year. I've decided to dose Spectracide Stump Remover (potassium nitrate) to raise the level of nitrate, since mine was nearly undetectable with the Salifert test kit. I have success in dosing Spectracide before, so i wasn't nervous about dosing it. However, I might have came across a bottle that contained impurities, since the company does not guarantee the purity to their product.

The result was that most of my montis and smooth skin acros was p-i-s-s-e-d off. The skin of the stressed acros look as if they have been left out of the water for more than 30 mins. The red dragon rtn'ed almost overnight on the third day after the initial dose. I immediately did a 100 gallon water changed and repeated the water changes every 3 days until things are looking better.

So if any of you are dosing Nitrate using Spectracide Stump Remover, I would recommend against it. I since have switched to the reagent/food grade Sodium Nitrate and have seen better color and growth in corals. The reason I dosed nitrate is for optimal color in corals, and also if I can keep the phosphate/nitrate levels balanced then I wouldn't have cyano problems. I found a sweet spot for my tank that if I feed my tank 4 cubes of mysis, some pellets and a nori sheet everyday. My phosphate level is within the 0.03 - 0.08 ppm range, then if I dosed my sodium nitrate solution 15 ml twice a day to keep the level around 5 ppm. My corals are happy and cyano will go away. If i forgot to dose nitrate for a few days and/or feed the tank more, then cyano will come back on the sand bed like clockwork. I have never dose phosphate before, whenever I feel like my tank is lacking in phosphate I just up my feeding with more frozen food. Below is info on how I calculate my nitrate solution if anyone is interested.

I used the calculator in the link below to make my dosing solution.
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm

Total gallons of water:
300 (dt) + 90 (frag tank) + 15 (top refugium) + 50 (bottom sump) = 455
Minus the rock displacement. I'm ballparking the number to be around 400 gallon even (very rough estimate).

I want to mix the full bottle of the sodium nitrate (4 oz) to a gallon of water. According to Randy Holmes, sodium nitrate is 16% more potent than potassium nitrate, so I chose the potassium nitrate option in the calculator and add 16% more to the total grams. 113+113×0.16=131.08

Great thanks for sharing, I've heard similar stories of folks having issues with stump remover but not lab grade stuff, makes sense. Sure it could be fine, but it might not.....

Btw, just trying to help, if it is 16% more potent you would actually multiply the potassium nitrate dose by 84% to get the equivalent, not add an additional 16% (to something that is already stronger).

Obviously it's working for you but I just wanted to make sure you knew that.

 

[BigJohnny]

If you want to create a list of instances where nitrate/phosphate dosing caused adverse reactions, I'm totally fine with that. If you want to hear what reefers dosed, how much, how often, and the observed negative outcomes, I think that's a great idea. There's not much that can be debated about what a reefer doses, how much they dosed, and what they think they saw as a reaction.

I don't think, however, it's appropriate to create a thread in which anyone can say anything they want about a given topic and be free from critique or discussion, so long as they describe only a single viewpoint of that topic. Members should not come here and intentionally junk up your thread with irrelevant posts. But, I don't think that any post in this thread should be immune from critique and discussion simply because it meets the criteria that you set.

Your entitled to your opinion, but it's my thread so please respect my wishes and goals here.

Thanks.

 

[saltyhog]

So my questions are:

1. Did you see any positive effects while dosing?

2. What negative effects did you see, if any, or did you just not like the instability?

3. What formulations of nitrate and phosphate did you use?

Reason for dosing was dinos due to bottoming out PO4 with NO3 already at zero.

1. Yes, took about 8 weeks of dosing but my dino problem resolved.

2. did not see any deleterious effects, stopped dosing and levels have stayed stable at NO3 4-5, PO4 0.06-0.08

3. I used lab grade NaNO3, tbs in 200 cc of RO/DI water and dosed as needed to keep nitrates above 5. I used Seachem Flourish (made for planted freshwater tanks)for PO4 and dosed to keep PO4 >0.1

 

[BigJohnny]

Thanks saltyhog, actually primatily looking for negative experiences but great post none the less. I know a lot of reefers have had success eliminating dinos in that manner.

 

[Brew12]

I've dosed both, nothing but positive experiences in my case so can't help ya there.