Bell and whistles?

[JonPhillips]

OK, so, in your opinion what are the "must haves" for a 130 gallon reef set up? I am not a cheap skate, but it also seems like one can have a thriving reef without ALL the technology. I am interested in doing it the most natural way, but I also want to avoid water changes as much as possible. Thoughts?

I guess I should say I am also filling the tank as much as possible with everything "reefish"

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I would not try to avoid water changes.

 

[JonPhillips]

I would not try to avoid water changes.

Not avoid them all together, but it seems like there is a way to prevent water breakdown as apposed to other methods.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Its like the going skimmer less conversations. Yes I can be done but it's going to take a lot of thought and discipline. On feeding and livestock. I also don't see how it would be done effectively in a new tank without a large investment and planning.
The very modern mixed reef mish mash of stuff you throw in would make the concept very hard to do.
Look at Paul b tank. There's a start there. Ats or refugium. Bacterial diversity and keeping it very clean. I.e. Detritus.

 

[Russ265]

im skimmerless and have been for over a year.
however i will probably throw one in after this acro competition is over.

do you need one? no. lol. you can keep any sps you want without it.

Some issues arise though....
your filter sponge will need to be cleaned more. about 4x more.
if you need to use chemiclean, all you can do is water change.
heavier gac use.

imo its about a 4/10 on my scale for keeping corals. yeah its a nice to have, but its not as critical as a chiller here in the south east usa.

here is my personal opinion on what is needed.

10/10 decent lights (led black boxes are fine)
10/10 decent return - you gotta move water
10/10 heater - winters happen
10/10 thermometer
9/10 mp40 - pricey but really worth it
9/10 chiller (if you have hot summers)
8/10 reactor - gac, chemipure, gfo w/e

some of these others are bordering on convenience rather than necessity.

7/10 rodi unit - beats buying water and lugging it around
5/10 ato - topping off manually stinks
4/10 skimmer
4/10 doser

maybe im forgetting something...

 

[JonPhillips]

Its like the going skimmer less conversations. Yes I can be done but it's going to take a lot of thought and discipline. On feeding and livestock. I also don't see how it would be done effectively in a new tank without a large investment and planning.
The very modern mixed reef mish mash of stuff you throw in would make the concept very hard to do.
Look at Paul b tank. There's a start there. Ats or refugium. Bacterial diversity and keeping it very clean. I.e. Detritus.

I all seriousness, thank you for this valuable information. For me, you can read it in book, but it helps so much to hear from people that are doing it right now.

 

[JonPhillips]

im skimmerless and have been for over a year.
however i will probably throw one in after this acro competition is over.

do you need one? no. lol. you can keep any sps you want without it.

Some issues arise though....
your filter sponge will need to be cleaned more. about 4x more.
if you need to use chemiclean, all you can do is water change.
heavier gac use.

imo its about a 4/10 on my scale for keeping corals. yeah its a nice to have, but its not as critical as a chiller here in the south east usa.

here is my personal opinion on what is needed.

10/10 decent lights (led black boxes are fine)
10/10 decent return - you gotta move water
10/10 heater - winters happen
10/10 thermometer
9/10 mp40 - pricey but really worth it
9/10 chiller (if you have hot summers)
8/10 reactor - gac, chemipure, gfo w/e

some of these others are bordering on convenience rather than necessity.

7/10 rodi unit - beats buying water and lugging it around
5/10 ato - topping off manually stinks
4/10 skimmer
4/10 doser

maybe im forgetting something...

THANK YOU!

UV steralizer?
Calcium reactor?

 

[omykiss001]

For me really good rock and macro algae that will sop up the nitrate and phosphate, good skimmer to keep production down and some sort of dosing of Ca and Co3 and you could reduce water changes to near zero. I'm running 180 with 130lbs of pukani dry rock a large amount of chaeto in a refugium, I dose 2 part to keep Ca and CO3 is check and my tank does not produce any detectable phosphate or nitrate. I still run GAC and GFO. I do limited water changes, but that is to control and balance Na and other metals introduced via the 2 part additives. If you used a Ca reactor you may not even need to worry about that. My corals grow well and I have a mixed reef and my acans and favia grow as well as my stylopora and seratopora. I know there is nitrate and phosphate in the system I just have enough studs using or binding it up that is below the detection level of my test kits. It can be done but you must consider how you'll stock and export the nutrients that are produced.

 

[go29]

Been in this hobby for 14 years so I have made my fair share of mistakes, but if I were starting over again here is what i would tell myself I need :

--> Invest in Quality RODI unit, keeping stable tank starts with the water you put in, and being able to make water when something goes wrong (it will) is MUCH better than running around town trying to find a place open that sells RODI

--> BUY A QUALITY SKIMMER.... I'm not here to argue with anyone as you CAN run a successful tank without one, but the problem is WHY would you? Skimmers are invaluable methods for removing organics from your water BEFORE they break down into nitrate and nitrite, and also it helps oxygenate your water. I have run systems successfully with and without, and I promise you that buying a quality skimmer makes it MUCH EASIER. Again not here arguing with anyone who will post and say that they don't run one and have a great tank etc, Im here as someone who has done both and can assure you skimmers help keep the water cleaner, and help keep dissolved oxygen levels higher. I will never again run a tank without one (haven't for years now) as the benefits to owning a skimmer far outweigh the cost of buying one. Once you see what it pulls out of your water, there is no point to not own one. Most of the people who don't run a skimmer run a plethora of other means of filtration (carbon, GFO, algae scrubbers, etc).... to me a high quality skimmer rated for your tank (and your stocking list) will only help you succeed in this hobby.

--> Buy a quality ATO.... people often fail to realize how quickly salinity levels change with water evaporation. ATO allow your tank parameters to remain stable and solid throughout the week, because again coming from someone who ran without one for years you WILL FORGET TO TOP OFF THE WATER from time to time when life gets busy, and that will result in changes to your tanks salinity. This will add stress to corals and other inhabitants that is not needed. In case you are new and don't know, the salt doesn't evaporate with the water, thus as water evaporates from your tank this causes a higher amount of salt left in the remaining water volume. With an ATO, your tank gets fresh RODI water added as the water level begins to drop, thereby negating any changes in salinity.

--> Buy vortech powerhead with battery backup.... now you can find other quality powerhead type pumps and rig up a battery yourself, but with the vortechs you can simply buy the battery backup and be done there. This keeps flow in the tank when you inevitably have the random power outages from storms etc and will save you from worrying about the tank as much

--> If you want to run carbon (does help keep "fishy smell" out of the water) purchase low dust types (such as ROX) as carbon dust has been linked to HLLE in tangs.

--> DO WATER CHANGES.... I realize this is against what you wanted, but you can live without all the other fancy gear in this hobby if you take the time every two weeks to change simply 20 gallons of water from your tank. I personally do water changes every sunday night, and in all honesty it has become a time of enjoyment and relaxation as its my time to observe tank extremely close, clean out skimmer collection cup, clean the sand bed, and get some fresh saltwater into the system while removing water that is depleted of various trace elements etc. You will read tanks from all over of people who do and do not change their water regularly, but I guarantee you that if you start looking at those with tanks that you admire, most do water changes as it is the single easiest way to keep high quality water and ensure that you don't get a buildup of random heavy metals, or depletion of trace elements and minerals.

Ultimately you don't need the vortech (but its extremely convent with battery backup unit) but everything else I listed above would be the BARE MINIMUM i would run a tank with now days. You can get buy without the fancy lights, without controllers, with cheap powerbeads etc.... but If you want long term success in this hobby without fooling around with algae scrubbers, bacteria culture dosing, carbon, GFO, etc then I recommend quality RODI, SKIMMER, ATO, and SCHEDULED WATER CHANGES REGULARLY.

 

[JonPhillips]

For me really good rock and macro algae that will sop up the nitrate and phosphate, good skimmer to keep production down and some sort of dosing of Ca and Co3 and you could reduce water changes to near zero. I'm running 180 with 130lbs of pukani dry rock a large amount of chaeto in a refugium, I dose 2 part to keep Ca and CO3 is check and my tank does not produce any detectable phosphate or nitrate. I still run GAC and GFO. I do limited water changes, but that is to control and balance Na and other metals introduced via the 2 part additives. If you used a Ca reactor you may not even need to worry about that. My corals grow well and I have a mixed reef and my acans and favia grow as well as my stylopora and seratopora. I know there is nitrate and phosphate in the system I just have enough studs using or binding it up that is below the detection level of my test kits. It can be done but you must consider how you'll stock and export the nutrients that are produced.

Stupendous! What is GAC and GFO? How often and how much do you change water?

 

[go29]

And again I realize you don't want to do water changes, but take it from some of us that have been in the hobby for years. The single most consistent thing that has never changed is WATER CHANGES HELP. Algae etc can all suck up nutrients and remove some trace metals from the water, however you still can't beat the positives that a water change gives your system. If you get into a schedule with it, I can perform a water change in about 30 min as I have all the saltwater mixed up a day in advance.

Also I guess I would ask all those that decide to forgo water changes to look at aquaculture facilities and large public aquariums (where livestock health = the owners means to making money) In all of these applications they utilize water changes. Why are so many so quick to try to find ways around something that is proven to be the single most effective means of clean water?

 

[go29]

GAC = granular activated carbon and GFO= granular ferric oxide

 

[JonPhillips]

Been in this hobby for 14 years so I have made my fair share of mistakes, but if I were starting over again here is what i would tell myself I need :

--> Invest in Quality RODI unit, keeping stable tank starts with the water you put in, and being able to make water when something goes wrong (it will) is MUCH better than running around town trying to find a place open that sells RODI

--> BUY A QUALITY SKIMMER.... I'm not here to argue with anyone as you CAN run a successful tank without one, but the problem is WHY would you? Skimmers are invaluable methods for removing organics from your water BEFORE they break down into nitrate and nitrite, and also it helps oxygenate your water. I have run systems successfully with and without, and I promise you that buying a quality skimmer makes it MUCH EASIER. Again not here arguing with anyone who will post and say that they don't run one and have a great tank etc, Im here as someone who has done both and can assure you skimmers help keep the water cleaner, and help keep dissolved oxygen levels higher. I will never again run a tank without one (haven't for years now) as the benefits to owning a skimmer far outweigh the cost of buying one. Once you see what it pulls out of your water, there is no point to not own one. Most of the people who don't run a skimmer run a plethora of other means of filtration (carbon, GFO, algae scrubbers, etc).... to me a high quality skimmer rated for your tank (and your stocking list) will only help you succeed in this hobby.

--> Buy a quality ATO.... people often fail to realize how quickly salinity levels change with water evaporation. ATO allow your tank parameters to remain stable and solid throughout the week, because again coming from someone who ran without one for years you WILL FORGET TO TOP OFF THE WATER from time to time when life gets busy, and that will result in changes to your tanks salinity. This will add stress to corals and other inhabitants that is not needed. In case you are new and don't know, the salt doesn't evaporate with the water, thus as water evaporates from your tank this causes a higher amount of salt left in the remaining water volume. With an ATO, your tank gets fresh RODI water added as the water level begins to drop, thereby negating any changes in salinity.

--> Buy vortech powerhead with battery backup.... now you can find other quality powerhead type pumps and rig up a battery yourself, but with the vortechs you can simply buy the battery backup and be done there. This keeps flow in the tank when you inevitably have the random power outages from storms etc and will save you from worrying about the tank as much

--> If you want to run carbon (does help keep "fishy smell" out of the water) purchase low dust types (such as ROX) as carbon dust has been linked to HLLE in tangs.

--> DO WATER CHANGES.... I realize this is against what you wanted, but you can live without all the other fancy gear in this hobby if you take the time every two weeks to change simply 20 gallons of water from your tank. I personally do water changes every sunday night, and in all honesty it has become a time of enjoyment and relaxation as its my time to observe tank extremely close, clean out skimmer collection cup, clean the sand bed, and get some fresh saltwater into the system while removing water that is depleted of various trace elements etc. You will read tanks from all over of people who do and do not change their water regularly, but I guarantee you that if you start looking at those with tanks that you admire, most do water changes as it is the single easiest way to keep high quality water and ensure that you don't get a buildup of random heavy metals, or depletion of trace elements and minerals.

Ultimately you don't need the vortech (but its extremely convent with battery backup unit) but everything else I listed above would be the BARE MINIMUM i would run a tank with now days. You can get buy without the fancy lights, without controllers, with cheap powerbeads etc.... but If you want long term success in this hobby without fooling around with algae scrubbers, bacteria culture dosing, carbon, GFO, etc then I recommend quality RODI, SKIMMER, ATO, and SCHEDULED WATER CHANGES REGULARLY.

You are a beast, my friend! Thank you!

 

[Baby Ray]

All I have is a skimmer, live rock, and cheato algae.
That is all the filtration that I need

 

[go29]

You are a beast, my friend! Thank you!

haha thanks, and good luck with whichever way you decide to try. I just wanted to give you an idea of what I would tell myself if I was starting out in this hobby knowing what I known now. There are 1000 ways to skin a cat, I'm just trying to provide what I feel is the easiest, proven way to succeed in this hobby. In the end there are different ways to do everything and many ways will work so don't get to caught up in taking one persons opinion. Good luck !!

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Stupendous! What is GAC and GFO? How often and how much do you change water?

if your at the level of learning about GAC and GFO. I would highly recommend following following more of go29 advice and start with the basics. Itll teach you, hands on, these balances. Skimmerless etc are kinda advanced techniques.
If the size of the WC is whats concerning you, consider a smaller tank to start. a 30 to 60 cube is pretty stinking cool, a 55 to 72 is really nice to. I would never advise folks to learn to drive in a Lamborgini.
Once you get the feel, an upgrade is pretty easy.

 

[Russ265]

THANK YOU!

UV steralizer?
Calcium reactor?

3/10 uv - fringe cases where id use.
4/10 caclium reactor. (same as doser)

 

[JonPhillips]

All I have is a skimmer, live rock, and cheato algae.
That is all the filtration that I need

Thanks! Is cheato algae stored in the refugium?

 

[JonPhillips]

if your at the level of learning about GAC and GFO. I would highly recommend following following more of go29 advice and start with the basics. Itll teach you, hands on, these balances. Skimmerless etc are kinda advanced techniques.
If the size of the WC is whats concerning you, consider a smaller tank to start. a 30 to 60 cube is pretty stinking cool, a 55 to 72 is really nice to. I would never advise folks to learn to drive in a Lamborgini.
Once you get the feel, an upgrade is pretty easy.

I don't know. Heard is was easier the larger the tank since there is more room for error. True?

 

[JonPhillips]

3/10 uv - fringe cases where id use.
4/10 caclium reactor. (same as doser)

Got it. Thank you.