Best alternative to quarantine?

[Lionfish hunter]

Not to you but to some if us it actually does.

Seriously I would love to hear you defend this.

 

[atoll]

You are correct in what you said. But Paul B says over and over again his fish have immunity to ich. I have argued with him at length. The problem with Paul b is that he is old and wrote a book. So people give him credit because he has experience and wrote a book. But a really stupid person can get old and write a book. And people are blindly following him. Half the stuff he says is just totally out of left field, scientifically inaccurate, or just plain wrong.

You think Paul is the only one that does similar to him then and achievesimilar results ? If so you are wrong very wrong there are many of us and not just in the USA.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

You think Paul is the only one that does similar to him then and achievesimilar results ? If so you are wrong very wrong there are many of us and not just in the USA.

Yeah don’t you use hydrogen peroxide?

 

[atoll]

Okay, enlighten me?

I have been keeping marines over 40 years. The first 10 years my fish would get itch and some not all would die like all the experts of the day said they wouid. I used basic copper treatments, sometimes it worked for some fish sometimes it didn't.
Then I took a step back and questioned everything I was told and decided mother nature had all the answers. I took a leaf out of her book and for the last 30ish years I have not had a serious case of disease in any of my tank in that time, about 9 in total.
I am not going to regurgitate what I have written many times on here about how I keep my tanks but if you care to readr Paul Bs thread you will read our similarities and philosophy to keeping marines healthy without QTing.
I am far from the only one, as said in another post, who doesn't believe in QT and yet have no problems with these common diseases.

 

[Borat]

best way is not to buy new fishes!

 

[atoll]

Yeah don’t you use hydrogen peroxide?

I have an oxydator that uses hrdrogen peroxide to increase O2 but there is much more to keeping a disease free tank IMO.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Seriously I would love to hear you defend this

So are you saying when ich gets in aquariums it is not of higher concentration than it is in the ocean? Because that is what you said I didn’t understand. If you are going to make a comment about how I don’t understand this, explain yourself.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I have an oxydator that uses hrdrogen peroxide to increase O2 but there is much more to keeping a disease free tank IMO.

Yes that’s what I thought, I thought that had potential but they are not available in the US. Or at least they weren’t. And the philosophy of hydrogen peroxide keeping ich at bay or killing it, is far different from Paul saying the bacteria in his tank eat the ich which is pure speculation at best.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

There is a big difference from immunity from a virus, and immunity from a multicelled parasitic organism. A virus infects a cell by replicating a receptor to gain access. The body has multiple ways to make immunity to that. VERY different from a parasite attaching to and feeding off an animal. And that is why there are no vaccines for parasites, it is nowhere near the same thing and should not be compared. Misinformation spread by Paul B.

I agree, "immunity" to protozoans and metazoans is simply not present for some parasites, and those that it has been seen in, it is only partial, and is time limited. So - fish exposed to Neobendenia flukes and are treated and survive gave like a 30% reduction in parasite load when infected again - but the remaining 70% is still fatal. With Cryptocaryon, if a fish is challenged with a severe infection and treated and survives, it has partial immunity for about 6 months.

There is no innate "wild fish immunity".

Jay

 

[Dav2996]

I am buying a couple fish from live aquaria and want to condition/treat them

I just run UV sterilizer and replace the bulb yearly it keeps diseases in the fish extremely low. It works great doing it this way.

 

[christyj3]

I placed an order from Dr Reef on 11/25/2022 and just got my pre-quarantined fish on 12/15/2022. I am so happy with Dr Reefs services that I've already placed my next order! I highly, highly recommend purchasing from Mike. I know that it takes a while to get your fish in the mail, but isn't it worth it overall if you know that what you're getting is going to be healthy? Having a piece of the ocean in your home requires patience. Personally, I'm happy to wait 4-6 weeks because I know that when my fish get here, they've been properly quarantined and they will already be eating.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

To the OP, you can also buy captive bred fish. They are just about guaranteed parasite free unless they are exposed to a parasite in a facility after they leave biota or ora.

Direct from the propagation facility is the key to that. I have a "tale of 100 clowns". In 2015, bought 50 clowns direct from ORA, zero losses in the first six months. In 2022, bought 50 clowns from ORA that spent time at a large wholesaler. Saw 50% mortality...skinny, gill flukes, protozoans, a real mess.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I'm not trying to split hairs, but "having immunity" to something is different than "having a healthy immune system". Immunity means you (or in this case a fish) never contract a certain illness; having a good immune system means that once you contract the illness, you easily fight it off, sometimes to the point of not even becoming infectious to others.
That's what Paul B's (and others') philosophy relies on... fish that have strong immune systems (not fish that are actually immune to ich, etc).
I'm not saying that depending on a fish's immune system is the right way to go, but fish don't just magically become immune to most diseases...

No doubt, quarantining is a good way to reduce the risk of a pathogen entering the tank, but it's not foolproof.

Yes, that's called "acquired immunity" and it is given way too much credence. However, a healthy immune system helps, but isn't a panacea - the pandemic showed us that.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

We offer pre-quarantined fish

But it's really not that bad to QT. Personally I ended up using cupramine on fresh QT tanks cycled with Bio-spira and marinepure media.

Wrote this years ago, but still believe in it:

Best Quarantine Procedures For Saltwater Fish and Coral

Quarantining new saltwater fish, coral, inverts and live rock is the most important step in keeping a healthy marine aquarium. Here are our preferred methods.

www.tankstop.com

More and more, people are moving away from Cupramine to Copper Power or Coppersafe. Cupramine has that issue when it is used with reducing agents, creating toxic copper conditions. It is also dosed at lower levels, which makes testing it with the high range Hanna less accurate (a 0.2 difference with Cupramine is huge, while a .2 difference with coppersafe doesn't matter as much). Finally, people still see toxic reactions in some fish like pygmy angels and eels, not seen with coppersafe.

Jay

 

[atoll]

[/QUOTE]

Yes that’s what I thought, I thought that had potential but they are not available in the US. Or at least they weren’t. And the philosophy of hydrogen peroxide keeping ich at bay or killing it, is far different from Paul saying the bacteria in his tank eat the ich which is pure speculation at best.

I have never said an oxydator will keep itch at bay. I belive using one with all the other stuff I do I do helps in the fight against itch. What I will state and stand behind is if a fish is suffering with white spot then an Oxydator can be a great help. Think of it as putting an oxygen mask on the fish as the itch trys to kill it by asphyxiation. However, there are many diseases out there that don't attack the gills hence why my use of my oxydator is only one in a long line of things I do to limit/eliminate common diseases. In fact what I do works so well my fish don't get any of these disease common in some others tanks. I am no expert in diseases and nor do I ever wish to be so if I was it would probably point to having experienced them.
I am 100% sure I have introduced a number of these diseases and have seen itch on fish soon after introduction only for it to disappear within 36 hours with no other fish showing any signs of it.

 

[SamsReef]

There is a middle ground and I would like to provide this practice that has worked with minimal loss. I do “quarantine” any new fishes (and corals) in one of my established propagation system. The fishes are observed and fed for a while before going into main tank. I treat with any medicine if I see any parasites or suspect internal parasites…it also gives best chance for shy fishes to start eating well.

The fishes are moved to main tank in a few weeks if everything is good. A few times over 17 yrs, the display tank has broken out with ich and once with velvet(after introducing a new fish). I don’t start pulling them out if established homes into “hospitals”. I feed them heavier and maintain good water quality. Once I am past the first months, it gets better. Even with velvet, I had only one fish die.

During this time - I feed lots of nori sheet and fatty PE mysis shrimp. Piscine is my frozen food of choice.

It’s best to have a quarantine tank but if you ended up with ich in the tank, you don’t need to break down tank, pull all fishes out and go fallow for 8 weeks. To that I call BS.

Sam

 

[Lionfish hunter]

There is a middle ground and I would like to provide this practice that has worked with minimal loss. I do “quarantine” any new fishes (and corals) in one of my established propagation system. The fishes are observed and fed for a while before going into main tank. I treat with any medicine if I see any parasites or suspect internal parasites…it also gives best chance for shy fishes to start eating well.

The fishes are moved to main tank in a few weeks if everything is good. A few times over 17 yrs, the display tank has broken out with ich and once with velvet(after introducing a new fish). I don’t start pulling them out if established homes into “hospitals”. I feed them heavier and maintain good water quality. Once I am past the first months, it gets better. Even with velvet, I had only one fish die.

During this time - I feed lots of nori sheet and fatty PE mysis shrimp. Piscine is my frozen food of choice.

It’s best to have a quarantine tank but if you ended up with ich in the tank, you don’t need to break down tank, pull all fishes out and go fallow for 8 weeks. To that I call BS.

Sam

Basically what I’ve said in this thread. Why not try to get parasite free fish or qt. And if they get in the display use uv or something similar to try and control it.
Be careful, don’t say it to loud, that opinion attracts stark opposition.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I have never said an oxydator will keep itch at bay. I belive using one with all the other stuff I do I do helps in the fight against itch. What I will state and stand behind is if a fish is suffering with white spot then an Oxydator can be a great help. Think of it as putting an oxygen mask on the fish as the itch trys to kill it by asphyxiation. However, there are many diseases out there that don't attack the gills hence why my use of my oxydator is only one in a long line of things I do to limit/eliminate common diseases. In fact what I do works so well my fish don't get any of these disease common in some others tanks. I am no expert in diseases and nor do I ever wish to be so if I was it would probably point to having experienced them.
I am 100% sure I have introduced a number of these diseases and have seen itch on fish soon after introduction only for it to disappear within 36 hours with no other fish showing any signs of it.
[/QUOTE]
You have a huge thread about using an oxidator to control ich. And I’m almost positive you have said it could be the reason for completely controlling ich. If you tell me I’m wrong I guess I’ll have to go searching for all your quotes in that thread. I’m not sure how me saying that is keeping ich at bay is out of line. Maybe you have not said those exact words, but give me a break.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

Direct from the propagation facility is the key to that. I have a "tale of 100 clowns". In 2015, bought 50 clowns direct from ORA, zero losses in the first six months. In 2022, bought 50 clowns from ORA that spent time at a large wholesaler. Saw 50% mortality...skinny, gill flukes, protozoans, a real mess.

Jay

Yes exactly, I bought yellow tangs directly from biota and it was the first time I have ever gotten parasite free tangs in 20 years. Those baby fish wouldn’t stand a chance growing up from fry with parasites present, their environments have to be sterile.

 

[Lionfish hunter]

I agree, "immunity" to protozoans and metazoans is simply not present for some parasites, and those that it has been seen in, it is only partial, and is time limited. So - fish exposed to Neobendenia flukes and are treated and survive gave like a 30% reduction in parasite load when infected again - but the remaining 70% is still fatal. With Cryptocaryon, if a fish is challenged with a severe infection and treated and survives, it has partial immunity for about 6 months.

There is no innate "wild fish immunity".

Jay

Be careful, don’t tell Paul that or his followers.