Best bacteria to populate balanced micro fauna?

CherBear811 · Sep 3, 2018

Looking for some input. My tank is established and doing well. But I have some pesky dinos that I don't want to get out of control. My nutrients are not super low, though my PO4 is currently a lil low to be in proper ratio (I don't get too hung up on chasing exact ratios but my rowa brought it far too low compared to my NO3). I've tried low dosing H202, which didn't do much. Applying a qtip soaked in H2O2 to my frag rack did eradicate it where I swabbed but obviously can't do that on the coral. And as long as it is in the water it will continue to show up here and there.

So, I am adding a diatom filter and after running that, I would like to dose bacteria to get a strong micro fauna population going.

I read that Marin Fauna Ultra Bak and Ultra Bio are excellent, but I can't seem to find the Ultra Bio anywhere. I also heard adding rotifers and of course dosing phyto to feed them is also recommended along with dosing copepods.

Game plan is to run the diatom filter for a couple of days, then remove and dose bacteria, wait at least a few days before running the diatom filter again, then redosing (bottled bacteria anyway).

The thought here of course is to populate the tank with natural predators of dinos and to out compete them.

Also... should I run the macro reactor immediately after dosing bacteria? It is not running right now as I don't want dinos getting into the macro, but wondering how long in this process I should wait til I bring the macro reactor back on line.

Any recommendations besides the MF products (again, this is not to establish a tank, looking for more strains of bacteria than necessary to just complete the nitrification cycle)? Any particular strain of pods recommended?

mcarroll · Sep 4, 2018

Bacteria is not likely what's missing from the system unless you're having (e.g.) ammonia problems.

Keeping your PO4 elevated may be the most important thing as that should keep your corals from being unhappy while keeping the dino's happy too. (Happy dino's don't bloom.)

Removing other carbon sources from the system (e.g. carbon dosing, macro algae, et al.) would be advisable as well since A) the are direct nutrient competition for your corals, and B) they are a known refuge for pest dino's.

Happy corals (which is a coral animal + dino's) in a stable, healthy tank should be able to dominate over your (plain coral host-less) dino's.

Was the tank started with real live rock, or is it a dead rock tank?

vetteguy53081 · Sep 4, 2018

Seeded live rock and regular water changes will diminish this. You want to change Water, not vacuum and flush out bedding and removing beneficial bacteria. I add bacter 8 and/or fritz zyme occasionally to restore and feed cultures in tank.

CherBear811 · Sep 4, 2018

Again, my tank is established. This is not a nitrogen cycle problem. It's a theory posed by someone, that having balanced microfauna - not just the nitrogen cycle bacteria - including pods, rotifers and macro algae creates a balanced environment that dinos can't thrive in. There are no other carbon sources. I don't carbon dose and haven't had chaeto reactor on line in a while. Dinos have wiped out many corals, not in my tank yet, but that's what they do... attach to coral and smother it. My phosphates are not low, they just are not high enough to be in line with my nitrate, which I want to bring down, but phosphate needs to come up more first.

I am looking for advice on bacteria products that include more than just nitrogen cycle bacteria. The rotifers and pods I can get... I just can't find the products that were recommended in the other thread.

vetteguy53081 · Sep 4, 2018

Ahhh, misunderstood. Aquaforest has Bio-s and NP-Pro which work well.

MnFish1 · Sep 4, 2018

There is a some evidence that adding bacteria does not 'add diversity' once you have a stable tank. Once you have a 'stable tank' - the bacteria thats 'there' will be in balance with the amount of nutrients that are in the tank.... If you add more bacteria to the tank 1 of 2 things will happen:

1. The bacteria that are already established will outcompete the new bacteria.
2. The 'new' bacteria that are added will outcompete some of the old bacteria - leading to potentially less diversity depending on the bacteria added.

The good thing about bacteria is the rapidity that it is replenished after some is removed. Even with a doubling time of 24 hours (which is crazy even for slowly doubling nitrifying bacteria - Ie some bacteria have doubling times of <15 minutes - like e coli) if you start with 1 single bacteria you will in 30 days end up with 500,000,000 bacteria. Clearly you cannot deplete bacteria in a reef tank by removing water or sand. Its just physically not possible.

ZoWhat · Sep 4, 2018

CherBear811 said:
My tank is established and doing well.

Then STOP overdoing overthinking

DSC reef · Sep 4, 2018

skimjim said:
Then STOP overdoing overthinking

OR, ask questions, learn and enjoy the hobby. What's wrong with wanting to better ones tank? We actually encourage members to come and ask questions.

CherBear811 · Sep 4, 2018

I am not new to this. Been in this hobby since the 80s and reefing since 2000. But this is the first time I have had dinos. I will keep trying solutions til something works because Dinos are not healthy in a tank.

Right now I am evaluating the experiences of others. H2O2 dosing is not working. Direct application of a qtip soaked in H202 then wiping matter off of my frag rag nearly eradicates it in that place. I dipped the corals that had points of attachment to a dino strand last night and a surprising amount of gunk was in the container afterward for otherwise clean, pest free coral. No pests, just brownish gunk. I have a diatom filter coming and will probably put a UV on line as both of these methods have produced good results and I don't have a huge problem, just trying to keep it from becoming a huge problem.

Again, this is NOT about nitrogen cycle bacteria, which is well established in my tank.

Let me shift the question more to copepod recommendations. Anyone know which strains are known to consume dinos?

DesertReefT4r · Sep 5, 2018

Bio Spira is my old school go to bacteria in a bottle. I now use Microbacter7 for all bacterial needs. Mixing it up with a few different brands will ensure a good diversity.

Wrasse-cal · Sep 5, 2018

OP, I tend to agree with your thinking that a tank benefits having a proper balance of bacteria and algae that support larger microbial life like zooplankton, which in turn suppport healthy coral and fish. I have no evidence however to support this save the logic of trying to model real world conditions.

Supposedly, Dr. Tim’s eco-balance is intended to be what you are looking for. I have not seen much posted about it.

CoralCache · Sep 5, 2018

Cher I don't add bacteria very often these days but the times that I do I use prodibio biodigest.
I have not been in it since the 80 bit I have since the 90's so congratulations on sticking around so long.
I rarely have dino's or slime algea but the times I have I have added bacteria and physically kept the tank a little cleaner. Tooth brush takes it off pretty easy.

CherBear811 · Sep 6, 2018

Read a study that showed that various species of cyclops eat dino's and Algae Barn include a strain of cyclops in one of its combos, so I think I will try that, as well as a round of live rotifers (not anticipating these lasting long, but we will see), and I think I will try an enzyme bacteria boosting product like probido or Dr Tims. I am going to run the diatom filter a few rounds first, as I think it would remove some of that.

Dipping was actually fairly effective. I did that a few nights ago and almost none of it has come back and lights were ramped up to normal intensity last night. I am not sure if it has impacted but I have recently increased dose of H2O2 since I can only find 3% in my town and the people report efficacy mostly use 6%.

Excited about having the diatom filter on hand not just for its polishing properties but also because it's believed to be a means of extremely limiting ich (not suggesting full eradication). I do QT most everything but I also like the idea of having it on hand. My water is typically very clear so I am curious to see if clarity will be noticeably improved since they are marketed as a polishing filter. Although, I have not been running carbon or purigen for a while now. Took offline a while back to treat with flucanazole, as I had a few pieces of coral come in with bryopsis and it spread quickly. FYI, flucanazole was AMAZING. Knocked it down in days and has not come back at all, months later down the road. Anyway, since I haven't been running carbon or purigen for a while, I am curious to see if the diatom/polishing filter noticeably improves water clarity.

Right now trying to decide on order in which I proceed, since the bacteria, rotifers and cyclops would all be vulnerable to the diatom filter and uv use.

CoralCache · Sep 6, 2018

Well good luck to you. Hopefully something helps.
As far as adding bacteria and the other devices I would just shut them off for a day or 2 and let the bacteria have a chance to hit some surfaces.

What kind of food do you feed? Just out if curiousity.

CherBear811 · Sep 6, 2018

CoralCache said:
Well good luck to you. Hopefully something helps.
As far as adding bacteria and the other devices I would just shut them off for a day or 2 and let the bacteria have a chance to hit some surfaces.

What kind of food do you feed? Just out if curiousity.

I feed the fish PE Mysis pellets and offer seaweed regularly. When my nutrients are down, I feed the corals chili, roids, and the lps mysis and coral banquet.

CoralCache · Sep 6, 2018

Nothing stands out there. Sometimes in the past I have seen high silicates associated with cyano.

reeferfoxx · Sep 6, 2018

The mention that even having the slightest amounts of dino population in a reef in regards to not being a healthy system, is far from the truth. If in fact, any research into the matter took place, they would suggest that pods or rotifers consume dinos. Which would suggest to me that dinos are part of the food chain and in fact they are.

The answer to the question has already been answered here in the thread. The impulse to purchase toys and bottles of magic are natural. Does it make it right? I think not. Can they help? sure.

Dinos typically take over when phosphate are limited. This isn't because phosphates are limited but because phosphates are limited to competition. Dinos can obtain nutrients from organisms that can't sustain life. Out of desperation, dinos multiply. When phosphates are limited we also see corals struggle. Especially sps due to the symbiotic relationship with a cousin to the bad dinoflagellates called zooxanthellae. Both benefit from phosphates. Not to mention other forms of algae and micro fauna that supply food to competitors that outcompete dinoflagellates.

The answer is here.

mcarroll said:
Bacteria is not likely what's missing from the system unless you're having (e.g.) ammonia problems.

Keeping your PO4 elevated may be the most important thing as that should keep your corals from being unhappy while keeping the dino's happy too. (Happy dino's don't bloom.)

Removing other carbon sources from the system (e.g. carbon dosing, macro algae, et al.) would be advisable as well since A) the are direct nutrient competition for your corals, and B) they are a known refuge for pest dino's.

Happy corals (which is a coral animal + dino's) in a stable, healthy tank should be able to dominate over your (plain coral host-less) dino's.

Was the tank started with real live rock, or is it a dead rock tank?

CoralCache · Sep 6, 2018

Sorry I am old and not familiar with this. So if my phosphates are very low I should have dino? Not saying anything weird asking this I am still after almost 25 years trying to learn.
Zoas , lps and sps growing crazy around .02 po4 and undetectable no3. No cyano or dinos.
I do understand exceptions to every rule I am just finding it hard to wrap my head around some of the new thoughts. Always willing to learn and change my mind.

reeferfoxx · Sep 6, 2018

CoralCache said:
Sorry I am old and not familiar with this. So if my phosphates are very low I should have dino? Not saying anything weird asking this I am still after almost 25 years trying to learn.
Zoas , lps and sps growing crazy around .02 po4 and undetectable no3. No cyano or dinos.
I do understand exceptions to every rule I am just finding it hard to wrap my head around some of the new thoughts. Always willing to learn and change my mind.

No. It's when you don't measure the availability of po4. For instance, you thought having 0.09ppm of phosphates was too high. You then add GFO to reduce it. All the while you see a spike in nitrates so you start carbon dosing or add bio-pellets. At this point you have GFO and carbon dosing reducing po4 and no3 but not considering you might have bottomed out po4. It's at that point you are putting yourself at risk of dinos.

You can maintain low po4 and low nitrates respectfully. As long as fish are present, and assuming you are feeding them, you have nitrates. Although, corals and bacteria might be uptaking nitrates faster than you can measure. The suggestion behind adding po4 at the sight of dinos is to fix a problem. If there is no problem, there is no reason. I myself battled dinos and I found that elevated po4 and no3 would create a green algae environment that eventually helped build an ecosystem that could out compete dinos. Of course, we don't want an algae filled system, so after the green algae blooms, stop with manually elevating nutrients. It really is that simple. Though, it doesn't hurt to add a new piece of live rock, pods, rotifers, plankton, etc etc.