Best bacteria to populate balanced micro fauna?

[mcarroll]

@CoralCache you might like this quote....follow the link to the originating thread for lots more background info and some related links too:

Common Contributing Factors
Some of the most common factors that contribute to the dino outbreaks we cover in this thread are:

• the tank being new, rock being immature or the tank being otherwise highly disturbed, such as by other harsh tank treatments
• hard core nutrient reduction tools being used, such as
  • organic carbon dosing
  • excess "bio media"
  • algae filtration
  • nutrient adsorbing media like GFO

These four factors, or excess nutrient removal generally, play – usually in combination; rarely just one factor alone – pretty directly into dino's conversion to the blooming, phagotrophic, mat forming, toxin-producing side of their nature.

• Starvation Is Their Cue
  • Dino's seem to prefer life as autotrophic epiphytes on macro algae – chaeto morpha seems to be one of their favorite types to host in. (Maybe this fact can be useful to us; maybe sometimes chaeto ought not be used, or used with special consideration)
  • For several reasons, dino's seem to be terrible at nutrient uptake. This means they are more prone to starvation than many or most other microorganisms they have to compete with.....especially bacteria, which can scavenge free nutrients down to CRAZY low levels...low enough to starve out other microbes or algae.
  • With their protective mucus mats, potential to generate wicked toxins, and ability to survive not only by way of photosynthesis and dissolved nutrients, but alternately, when times get tough, by "eating their neighbors". (The least of their tricks.)
  • Dino's generally gain a competitive edge against their competitors AND their predators in a nutrient-starved environment. Keep reading!

 

[CherBear811]

PO4 is likely not the factor here. My PO4 at its lowest was .05 but since taking ROWA offline it has crept up to .9

Still have dinos. In fact lots of people with dinos do not run ULN tanks, which seem to be on the decline, thank God. However, my ratio was way off. When PO4 was low, NO3 was high. Not high enough to bother my coral, but way out of whack. They are almost within the range I like for a PO4:NO3 now though. Corals are all doing ok and consuming a fair amount of CA and alk. But still I have dinos. They are much better now after dipping the other night but not eradicated.

The diatom filter should get here today so I will be curious to see if helps eradicate by pulling out of the water column. I think I will likely struggle with this until I put a UV on and introduce some predators to wipe them out (obviously not at the same time).

From what I have seen so far, two things seem to be working - running UV (and not a crappy low output UV but an actual strong UV for at least 12 hours a day), AND a strong proliferation of copepods, amphipods, and from what I have read both rotifers and some cyclops eat dinos. Now, rotifers and cyclops are not likely to last a long time in a reef tank, but introducing them to get the dino's nearly eradicated and then employing other methods that seem to work seems like a good direction. Dinos are challenging to eradicate. It's not nearly as simple as cyano.

Other solutions seem to be either hit or miss, likely dependent on the strain in the tank - DinoX and H2O2 dosing. Blackouts seem to knock them down but not out, so I only consider blackouts a bandaid.

 

[CherBear811]

@CoralCache you might like this quote....follow the link to the originating thread for lots more background info and some related links too:

None of that applies to my tank. Not nutrient starved, no macro that they grow on (they primarily grow on my frag rack and sps frags - the frag rack has been removed and BLEACHED and they still came back). I did run ROWA for a while, but I had dinos before that and still have them months after being offline. I don't carbon dose and I have no bio media - only live rock.

Bottom line, there does not seem to be a single limiting factor or cure with dinos. Perhaps some trends, yes.

 

[mckinney0171]

totally different scenario. but, i am also battling dino's. i have some leftover bacteria in a bottle from a red sea reef mature starter kit. i am going to give this a shot starting this weekend along with H2O2 dosing and see what happens. just jumping on this thread to see how it turns out for you.

 

[reeferfoxx]

None of that applies to my tank. Not nutrient starved, no macro that they grow on (they primarily grow on my frag rack and sps frags - the frag rack has been removed and BLEACHED and they still came back). I did run ROWA for a while, but I had dinos before that and still have them months after being offline. I don't carbon dose and I have no bio media - only live rock.

Bottom line, there does not seem to be a single limiting factor or cure with dinos. Perhaps some trends, yes.

It would be awesome if you could get a microscopic view of your dinos. We seldom hear of the infamous high nutrient dino but yet to have a photograph of them.

 

[CherBear811]

It would be awesome if you could get a microscopic view of your dinos. We seldom hear of the infamous high nutrient dino but yet to have a photograph of them.

Don't have a microscope yet. Seriously considering it though to help with identifying the strain.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Don't have a microscope yet. Seriously considering it though to help with identifying the strain.

$10 scope off amazon will ID dinos.

 

[CherBear811]

$10 scope off amazon will ID dinos.

Any one in particular you can recommend? Going to be doing an amazon order this weekend.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Any one in particular you can recommend? Going to be doing an amazon order this weekend.

Any of the kids scopes will do. I do recommend getting a separate purchase of glass slides as the included plastic slides scratch and distort very easily.

 

[mcarroll]

Not having a coverslip for the slide makes re-focusing necessary with every move of the slide too....so order slides and coverslips. Neither is expensive...and they are often sold as a set.

 

[ramona]

Anybody has experience with Microbe-lift Special Blend and Night Out II?

 

[ramona]

hmmm, doesn't look too popular; I thought Special Blend brings in denitrifiers and Night Out II brings nitrifiers

 

[Zotmurse]

Cher I don't add bacteria very often these days but the times that I do I use prodibio biodigest.
I have not been in it since the 80 bit I have since the 90's so congratulations on sticking around so long.
I rarely have dino's or slime algea but the times I have I have added bacteria and physically kept the tank a little cleaner. Tooth brush takes it off pretty easy.

do you run UV?

 

[Marc2952]

i used zeobak when i was going through dinos and it helped.

 

[csb123]

I’m in the same camp as you. I feel, like every ecosystem outside and in us, is healthiest when there is a diverse microbiome.

I’ve been looking at garf.org for their “grunge” to charge my two refugiums.

 

[CherBear811]

The mention that even having the slightest amounts of dino population in a reef in regards to not being a healthy system, is far from the truth. If in fact, any research into the matter took place, they would suggest that pods or rotifers consume dinos. Which would suggest to me that dinos are part of the food chain and in fact they are.

The answer to the question has already been answered here in the thread. The impulse to purchase toys and bottles of magic are natural. Does it make it right? I think not. Can they help? sure.

Dinos typically take over when phosphate are limited. This isn't because phosphates are limited but because phosphates are limited to competition. Dinos can obtain nutrients from organisms that can't sustain life. Out of desperation, dinos multiply. When phosphates are limited we also see corals struggle. Especially sps due to the symbiotic relationship with a cousin to the bad dinoflagellates called zooxanthellae. Both benefit from phosphates. Not to mention other forms of algae and micro fauna that supply food to competitors that outcompete dinoflagellates.

The answer is here.

Nutrients are never a problem in my tanks. Ever. They're always on the high side. Higher than people believe you can have a healthy system with thriving corals. But that is a common cause or at least a correlating factor.

 

[CherBear811]

i used zeobak when i was going through dinos and it helped.

I was just looking at ZeoBak today on BRS. Chatted with them for a bit and they were honest in saying they don't know enough about it to recommend it. KV closely guards their formulas so it's hard to know. Looking at the reviews for it on BRS it seems to be totally hit or miss.

I have been dosing Dr Tim's Eco Balance and it does seem to be helping. The dinos had gotten better over a long haul of much lower lights but now after a couple months of dosing the Eco Balance (weekly) I am not seeing the bubble forming even when I do ramp the lights up a bit. So, it may have been an absence of the right kind of micro fauna. A lot of ppl talk about bacteria in terms of the nitrogen cycle, but there is a lot more to a healthy system than that. I have noticed that the increase in dinos seems to be correlated to the proliferation of starting tanks with dry rock. Back when we always started with real live rock from the ocean, we never had dinos. I hadn't even heard of them til a few years ago. And this tank was started with previous live rock that had been dead in storage for years. So, essentially a dry rock tank. Recognizing, and perhaps creating cultures and bottling some of these other (probably millions of) microfauna would be a huge step forward.

Eco Balance is a probiotic formula, though like every other brand, they don't say what's in it. But I have really grown to trust Dr. Tim's over the years (and Bio Spira before that when it was Dr Tim who created that product).

 

[CherBear811]

I’m in the same camp as you. I feel, like every ecosystem outside and in us, is healthiest when there is a diverse microbiome.

I’ve been looking at garf.org for their “grunge” to charge my two refugiums.

I've heard nothing but great things about GARF's Grunge, which is essentially what I am talking about... actual ocean microfauna. I don't have a fuge but dang if I'm not tempted to rig something up so I could use some. Lol

 

[CherBear811]

do you run UV?

Not yet, but it's on the list of equipment to add though for sure. Near the top of a short list.

 

[sky414]

Looking for some input. My tank is established and doing well. But I have some pesky dinos that I don't want to get out of control. My nutrients are not super low, though my PO4 is currently a lil low to be in proper ratio (I don't get too hung up on chasing exact ratios but my rowa brought it far too low compared to my NO3). I've tried low dosing H202, which didn't do much. Applying a qtip soaked in H2O2 to my frag rack did eradicate it where I swabbed but obviously can't do that on the coral. And as long as it is in the water it will continue to show up here and there.

So, I am adding a diatom filter and after running that, I would like to dose bacteria to get a strong micro fauna population going.

I read that Marin Fauna Ultra Bak and Ultra Bio are excellent, but I can't seem to find the Ultra Bio anywhere. I also heard adding rotifers and of course dosing phyto to feed them is also recommended along with dosing copepods.

Game plan is to run the diatom filter for a couple of days, then remove and dose bacteria, wait at least a few days before running the diatom filter again, then redosing (bottled bacteria anyway).

The thought here of course is to populate the tank with natural predators of dinos and to out compete them.

Also... should I run the macro reactor immediately after dosing bacteria? It is not running right now as I don't want dinos getting into the macro, but wondering how long in this process I should wait til I bring the macro reactor back on line.

Any recommendations besides the MF products (again, this is not to establish a tank, looking for more strains of bacteria than necessary to just complete the nitrification cycle)? Any particular strain of pods recommended?

Did you ever find bacteria to increase microfauna?