Best Biological Filtration?

[NS Mike D]

So is all of the live rock in the ocean that's 100s of millions of years old clogged and inefficient? How exactly does that theory go?

Pretty simple. The ocean and the reefs reefs are alive and vast. They are constantly forming new rock and breaking down old. There is just no way we can mimic this in our tiny closed systems. Also, we don't mimic the sheer volume of water that carries detritus away.
So we need alternative methods to deal with what we don't mimic.

 

[KrisReef]

Wow thanks for the help I really appreciate it!

+ @ryshark “Buy O diversity “, dead rock has effectively zero diversity with regard to living biological filtration except for potential growth surface for colonizers.

(Ryshark’s post was beautiful informative and made my day, thank you!)

Bacteria from a bottle handle nitrogen issues but ocean live rocks have sponges and other living things that interact as a web of life. Reef health is a symphony of organisms not just a couple of microbes.

Sorry for the strange rant. I get excited over community interactions.

 

[NS Mike D]

+ @ryshark “Buy O diversity “, dead rock has effectively zero diversity with regard to living biological filtration except for potential growth surface for colonizers.

(Ryshark’s post was beautiful informative and made my day, thank you!)

Bacteria from a bottle handle nitrogen issues but ocean live rocks have sponges and other living things that interact as a web of life. Reef health is a symphony of organisms not just a couple of microbes.

Sorry for the strange rant. I get excited over community interactions.

these discussions remind me that reefs have zones and are more than the top part where light make those corals pop. There are cryptic and semi cryptic zones that interact with each other in that symphony.

 

[xxkenny90xx]

Pretty simple. The ocean and the reefs reefs are alive and vast. They are constantly forming new rock and breaking down old. There is just no way we can mimic this in our tiny closed systems. Also, we don't mimic the sheer volume of water that carries detritus away.
So we need alternative methods to deal with what we don't mimic.

I totally agree with this. The only thing I would add is that the ocean deals with changes over thousands of years, our tanks don't get that old so shouldn't need to break down old rock and create new (at least in my uneducated opinion).

 

[Spare time]

I think there are a wide variety of bacteria bottles that you can get to help. Eco balance, microbacter7, pns, etc.

 

[DesertReefT4r]

You are probably fine. The only differene between biomedia and rock is that the biomedia is typically more porous and doesn't take up space in the display. And no, biomedia is not a nitrate factory in that they produce unwanted nitrates. Whatever nitrates they produce will come from what you are putting in the tank. Now if you don't have filter socks or anything like that then yeah all the crud will land there and rot without being taken out. Some biomedia will remove nitrate.


However, no sand is going to give you plenty of algae issues and bacterial issues for a decent amount of time as sand is a massive source of good bacteria. In this case, biomedia may be a good idea (avoid bioball though as they are terrible.

Good info, 100% spot on. No other media is needed but it never hurts if you have room in the sump. I have some rock rubble and a bag of Siporax in my sump, tank is BB with about 60lbs of live rock in a 75g display. Any of the bio medias that are popular today will work, I dont think one is any better than another.

 

[Onajoyride]

I created a section after my filter roller in my sump to have the sand in. That way I get the benefit of the sand but none of the downside of it being a fish toilet long term. I plan on buying some sponges in a month or two and throwing them into the dark section of my sump under the skimmer or something like that. I have seen some on ebay of all places that look like a decent option. Hope this helps and happy reefing.

 

[spspirate]

Try to find some small pieces of rubble from other reefers established systems that have sponge growing on them. Introducing sponges into your system will help more than you’d think in keeping good water quality. Sponges can turn nutrients around up to 10 x faster than beneficial bacteria. A lot of the beautiful healthy systems I have seen that are heavy with SPS have a well diversified establishment of sponge.

 

[jda]

No way around this: rock and sand are your best filters. You will get there eventually with the rock... it might be enough depending on how porous it is. All rock is different and more porous is better. Skimming heavy can help on the front end and a good fuge can help on the back end.

There is more to diversity than just bacteria. Worms (all kinds), pods (all kinds), stars, sponges, protozoans, etc. will all do a job and help... you cannot get any of these in a bottle except for a few strains of pods. Indo Pacific Sea Farms are awesome. If you can afford it, order a small pack of live from from one of the Flordia culturing facilities... they can have some crabs and stuff, but the good is worth the bad. Don't fall into the trap of "no pests" because the first frag that you bring in can have all of the apitasia, bubble algae or bryopsis that you could ever want... and dinos, diatoms and cyano will pop up anywhere at any time.

This is a good read on the effect of no diversity from a guy who knows what he is doing...

Revisiting my Elos tank after 18 months | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Sometimes we just aren’t as smart as we think we are. I am using the “royal we” as I know I am definitely not as smart as I think I am a lot of the tie, especially when it comes to this hobby.

reefbuilders.com

 

[xxkenny90xx]

No way around this: rock and sand are your best filters. You will get there eventually with the rock... it might be enough depending on how porous it is. All rock is different and more porous is better. Skimming heavy can help on the front end and a good fuge can help on the back end.

There is more to diversity than just bacteria. Worms (all kinds), pods (all kinds), stars, sponges, protozoans, etc. will all do a job and help... you cannot get any of these in a bottle except for a few strains of pods. Indo Pacific Sea Farms are awesome. If you can afford it, order a small pack of live from from one of the Flordia culturing facilities... they can have some crabs and stuff, but the good is worth the bad. Don't fall into the trap of "no pests" because the first frag that you bring in can have all of the apitasia, bubble algae or bryopsis that you could ever want... and dinos, diatoms and cyano will pop up anywhere at any time.

This is a good read on the effect of no diversity from a guy who knows what he is doing...

Revisiting my Elos tank after 18 months | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

Sometimes we just aren’t as smart as we think we are. I am using the “royal we” as I know I am definitely not as smart as I think I am a lot of the tie, especially when it comes to this hobby.

reefbuilders.com

^^^
Awesome answer

 

[SMB]

If you want to add more surface area but don't want to cram a lot of loose media in your sump, you can consider a pellet reactor. Just be sure to add the recommended amount of pellets over many months.

 

[DxMarinefish]

In the first year or so you will battle all sorts off algae issues. so may be worth considering an Algae Turf Scrubber (ATS) or Chaeto reactor. You may not need this now but worth considering it now in your set-up design, i.e. allow for easy addition if needed.

My tank is just over 1 year old now and my SPS are starting to grow well. I don't skim but I have an ATS and a sump full of Algae (green hair algae, Chaeto, Ulva) and the pod life is just insane.

for sponges a feed from an established tank is good but very risky. So good alternatives is dosing from bottled suppliers like the Zeovit Sponges which has allowed me to grow over 5 types of sponges in my tank.

I have also seeded with live rock rubble from the ocean and that has helped tremendously.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Bio-filtration?
Active or passive?
What should be the problem caused by using so-called "nitrate factories" and active management of the nitrogen content using a bio-filter?

In a marine tank, a certain amount of ammonia/ammonium is produced. Released due to metabolism ( catabolism). Produced by aerobic remineralization and the production of energy. The bacteria doing the job are heterotrophs and use the organics for their metabolism releasing CO2, nitrogen ( ammonia/ammonium) and phosphorus ( phosphoric acid). Bacteria prefer ammonia as a nitrogen source for fast growth. To make growth possible a lot of energy is used to retrieve their carbon as the heterotrophic bacteria only are able to use DOC. Heterotrophs not only use nitrogen for cell synthesis but also release a lot due to respiration. (dissimilation, catabolism) . Nature limits heterotrophic growth for a good reason, the by heterotrophs released ammonia is processed by autotrophs, some will be used by photo-autotrophs ( algae, phytoplankton), some by nitrifiers producing nitric acid.
Nitrate production is storing usable nitrogen for later use, and it prevents ammonia may accumulate in the closed environment of an aquarium as photo-autotrophs may not be able to grow fast enough to follow the ammonia production rate.

The capacity of a system to process ammonia is determined for the carrying capacity and the bio-load of a closed system.

In a balanced ZMAS ( Zero emission Marine Aquarium System) a safely stored nitrogen reserve is needed. It will be used when ammonia is used up. Due to the fact nitrate is used as a nitrogen source the growth rate will slow down (+- 5x) preventing continuous high growth rates supported by ammonium-nitrogen availability may cause phosphorus starvation, something I would try to prevent at all times. Nitrogen availability should be the growth limiting factor in a closed reef system. As this is difficult to manage, I prefer nitrogen to be available as nitrate-nitrogen instead of ammonium-nitrogen.

When nitrate is used as a nitrogen source the nitrate must internally be transformed into usable ammonia-nitrogen and some of this ammonia is leaked to the immediate environment, this way a microbial community may control its growth and consumption rates. Combined with controlling the organic carbon availability a microbial community, as is a coral holobiont, is able to control its own nutrient supply and consumption.

What happens if organic carbon is unlimited available?

The view taken by many is that nitrate supports algae growth and that the nitrate level is responsible for increased algae growth. This is completely rebuttable and has been experimentally proven to be untrue. The nitrate level does not affect the growth rate of algae in any way, they grow just as slowly at a low as at a high nitrate level. It is the nitrogen source used that determines the growth rate, of course with sufficient availability of all other essential substances. The same can be said about the growth of symbiodinium in corals.

In a healthy nitrifying bio-film also denitrification takes place, by which +-16% of the produced nitrate may be removed from the system as N2, closing the nitrogen cycle.

Maybe someone can explain why a nitrifying bio-filter is considered to be a " nitrate factory", it may be responsible for removing a considerable amount of nitrogen from the system, and why nitrate production is considered to be a bad thing?

Using a bio-filter makes active management of the nitrogen cycle possible.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Bio-filtration?
Active or passive?
What should be the problem caused by using so-called "nitrate factories" and active management of the nitrogen content using a bio-filter?

In a marine tank, a certain amount of ammonia/ammonium is produced. Released due to metabolism ( catabolism). Produced by aerobic remineralization and the production of energy. The bacteria doing the job are heterotrophs and use the organics for their metabolism releasing CO2, nitrogen ( ammonia/ammonium) and phosphorus ( phosphoric acid). Bacteria prefer ammonia as a nitrogen source for fast growth. To make growth possible a lot of energy is used to retrieve their carbon as the heterotrophic bacteria only are able to use DOC. Heterotrophs not only use nitrogen for cell synthesis but also release a lot due to respiration. (dissimilation, catabolism) . Nature limits heterotrophic growth for a good reason, the by heterotrophs released ammonia is processed by autotrophs, some will be used by photo-autotrophs ( algae, phytoplankton), some by nitrifiers producing nitric acid.
Nitrate production is storing usable nitrogen for later use, and it prevents ammonia may accumulate in the closed environment of an aquarium as photo-autotrophs may not be able to grow fast enough to follow the ammonia production rate.

The capacity of a system to process ammonia is determined for the carrying capacity and the bio-load of a closed system.

In a balanced ZMAS ( Zero emission Marine Aquarium System) a safely stored nitrogen reserve is needed. It will be used when ammonia is used up. Due to the fact nitrate is used as a nitrogen source the growth rate will slow down (+- 5x) preventing continuous high growth rates supported by ammonium-nitrogen availability may cause phosphorus starvation, something I would try to prevent at all times. Nitrogen availability should be the growth limiting factor in a closed reef system. As this is difficult to manage, I prefer nitrogen to be available as nitrate-nitrogen instead of ammonium-nitrogen.

When nitrate is used as a nitrogen source the nitrate must internally be transformed into usable ammonia-nitrogen and some of this ammonia is leaked to the immediate environment, this way a microbial community may control its growth and consumption rates. Combined with controlling the organic carbon availability a microbial community, as is a coral holobiont, is able to control its own nutrient supply and consumption. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=nl:makazi:theorie:koraal_holoboint

What happens if organic carbon is unlimited available?

The view taken by many is that nitrate supports algae growth and that the nitrate level is responsible for increased algae growth. This is completely rebuttable and has been experimentally proven to be untrue. The nitrate level does not affect the growth rate of algae in any way, they grow just as slowly at a low as at a high nitrate level. It is the nitrogen source used that determines the growth rate, of course with sufficient availability of all other essential substances. The same can be said about the growth of symbiodinium in corals.

In a healthy nitrifying bio-film also denitrification takes place, by which +-16% of the produced nitrate may be removed from the system as N2, closing the nitrogen cycle. ref: http://www.baharini.eu/baharini/doku.php?id=en:makazi:bio-chemie:biofilm#a_biofilm_for_nitrification

Maybe someone can explain why a nitrifying bio-filter is considered to be a " nitrate factory", it may be responsible for removing a considerable amount of nitrogen from the system, and why nitrate production is considered to be a bad thing?

Using a bio-filter makes active management of the nitrogen cycle possible.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

So is all of the live rock in the ocean that's 100s of millions of years old clogged and inefficient? How exactly does that theory go?

There is no proof life rock performs any better as bio-filter compared to other rock. it is all about usable surface and water exchange rates. Live rock is overgrown, in an aquarium often constantly grazed removing biofilms. GAC has a huge surface but when used as a biofilter for denitrification the removal rate is very low due to the very limited water exchange rate after a short time of use.

 

[SPSReeferMI]

I started my tank, a Waterbox 170, with around 100 pounds of dry rock. I also added some marine pure in my sump. I have a refugium as well.

I cannot tell you if the rock you are planning to use will be enough for your bio-filter. I had a similar concern and added 3 marine pure blocks just to be sure. You might be able to get away without that amount if you go slow (as you are planning). I personally wanted a high bio-load.

I found that:
1.) Yes it took longer to be ready for SPS (8 months for me)
2.) Bacteria blooms were as bad as they say (my 3 instances lasted days to weeks)
3.) I will strongly consider going with Tampa Bay Saltwater if/when I do another tank for increased biodiversity

 

[safedad]

I was hoping that the rock in the display would be enough as ive heard that the bacteria grow everywhere in the system, not just on the rock. So to sum up what I have for water quality... I have a 6 stage RODI system, Tunze ATO system, the 37 pounds of rock, 2 filter socks, a protein skimmer, a carbon reactor, and the Ecotech Versa 4 pack for dosing and doing a 1 gallon AWC each day. Outside the water quality aspect I have 2 Ecotech mp10s for flow, a Ecotech Vectra S2 for return, and 2 XR15 G5's on order. Does this sound like a good setup to start getting my hands dirty in SPS?

Remember you “simply “ are balancing nutrients in and waste generated with your waste treatment capacity. Test, test, test before you start and when you make any changes. I am using live rock, sand base in my 90 gallon display tank. chaeto, tri based carbon, all in one biopellets and a protein skimmer in my 75 gallon sump. I think the biopellets are the most efficient. Your smaller system will be more sensitive to changes.

 

[piranhaman00]

Didnt read, Seachem Matrix.

 

[Graffiti Spot]

The op listed bioballs in the list of media which is probably where he read the nitrate factory claim. I don’t think any of the other listed things are in the category of nitrate factories.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I recently set up a tank and used artificial rock for the first time in my 50+ years of reef-keeping. Never again! I've come to learn that the artificial CEMENT rock is very non-porous. This is what Jack (CEO) from Brightwell wrote to me: "Lowering nitrates has so much to do with anaerobic surface area available many times because so much of the “live rock” nowadays is non-porous concrete". (Of course he was recommending his XPort NO3 bricks or cubes, which I know nothing about).
I recently replaced half the artificial rock with rock from LiveRockNReef.com. (Primo Rock). They take rock from the Gulf of Mexico and ship it overnight. Unlike most live rock from the Pacific that has been out-of-the-water for weeks sometimes, the Gulf rock is teeming with life since it has only been out of water for only about a day. It isn't the prettiest of rock (shape) but great for seeding the tank. My 25 lbs of rock came loaded with sponges, 2 lobophyllia, 3 clams, tunicates, macroalgae, feather dusters, etc....(but a few aptasia, too...which I can tolerate).
I plan to replace the other half of my rock with nicer-shaped rock from the Pacific when I come across something nice.