BIG AND LOUD CONTROLLER COMPARISON THREAD

[Water Dog]

The new Apex has individual outlet power monitoring, integrated 1-Link and built in wifi and conductivity monitoring. I hardware my Apex Classic anyway as it's more reliable. If you want wifi for the Classic, just rig up a wireless gaming adapter. If you want to monitor salinity through a conductivity probe, just get a PM2 module. I've heard the conductivity probe is a pain to calibrate and keep consistent anyway so I check my salinity with my Milwaukee digital refractometer... much more reliable.

 

[Devaji]

dang it I wish I would have never seen this thread...grrr I really like apex but some things just drive me nuts about them.
1. just cant get over how cheap looking the new unit is. really turn me off from buying it.
2. seams like they stop short on many of there products. I am no expert here but seams like it. example the water level sensor ppl say you have to DIY something to get it to work? what the heck .
3. IMHO things that should be part of a controller are extra I mean ATO is a basic but vital part of a reef.

 

[Water Dog]

I'm not a fan of too much integration (too many eggs in one basket). So I prefer my Tunze 3155 ATO, Vortech and Tunze powerheads... all of these are controlled by my Apex through the EB8, but should by Apex go kaput, I just plug everything into a regular power strip and its business as usual.

And don't sweat the look of the new controller. The real value is in picking up a used Apex Classic with the sleek black look and metal housing built like a tank.

 

[n2585722]

dang it I wish I would have never seen this thread...grrr I really like apex but some things just drive me nuts about them.
1. just cant get over how cheap looking the new unit is. really turn me off from buying it.
2. seams like they stop short on many of there products. I am no expert here but seams like it. example the water level sensor ppl say you have to DIY something to get it to work? what the heck .
3. IMHO things that should be part of a controller are extra I mean ATO is a basic but vital part of a reef.

Have you looked into the Archon. It has wifi connectivity and is completly web based. So all you need is a smart phone, tablet or computer with a web browser to connect to it. It even generates it's own wifi hot spot where you can connect.

 

[Devaji]

Have you looked into the Archon. It has wifi connectivity and is completly web based. So all you need is a smart phone, tablet or computer with a web browser to connect to it. It even generates it's own wifi hot spot where you can connect.

I have not lately, I was excited about it when it was coming out, but then read tons of reviews saying it was not the best, buggy and untrustworthy. has things changed? I am open to give it a far chance. I,ll look in to it.

I'm not a fan of too much integration (too many eggs in one basket). So I prefer my Tunze 3155 ATO, Vortech and Tunze powerheads... all of these are controlled by my Apex through the EB8, but should by Apex go kaput, I just plug everything into a regular power strip and its business as usual.

And don't sweat the look of the new controller. The real value is in picking up a used Apex Classic with the sleek black look and metal housing built like a tank.

yeah totally agree if I go apex I will get a classic I do like the metal boxes and it can do pretty much everything the new can. my wifi come in to the house right by the tank so connecting via either net is not a deal breaker for me.

 

[Water Dog]

Sorry, meant to say the Apex Classic housings are a sleek looking black but still plastic though. It's the EB8s that have the black metal housings. Either way, it looks better than the grey orange new Apex color scheme.

 

[n2585722]

I have had mine since they first came out. It is quite different from the initial firmware. For one the wifi hotspot is on now continuously. It also now has the same webpages as going through your normal network. The software updating has changed also. I am happy with mine.

 

[n2585722]

Devaji,
I would have answered your post on RC but I will do it here. It is easier to post screenshots from my iPad here. All the screenshots are from an ipad with the Archon network selected for the wifi network. The default address when accessing via the Archon's own network is 192.168.10.1. You can change this if you want but I don't think there is a real need to.

1. web based platform where i can see and communicate while out of town. ( i travel 2x a year for 3 weeks at a time or more. )

The Archon is a web based controller. Once your router is setup with a ddns you can access the controller from anywhere with internet access. I have a Asus router that came with free ddns service.

2. reliability. don't what it to fail and crash my tank.

I have had mine since December 2014. It is still trucking without any hardware failures. I am also a beta tester so I usually get the new software to try before the general public. In the beginning there were a few software glitches. Especially with updates. The update process has been changed and that is no longer a problem. I do use this to control my 42 gallon hex tank. I was using a RKE before the Archon. When it was replaced everything was still working and it was purchased in 2008. I still use the power bars and most of the other modules with the Archon.

3. able to control more then one tank. with out a ton of wires running across the room about 20' is this even possible?

The Archon can control up to 255 modules so that can control quite a few tanks. The modules are connected together with their buss cables in a daisy chain fashion. So all you would need to run from one tank to the other is a single buss cable. Some modules have more than 2 buss ports and can be used as hubs where multiple module strings can be connected. The Archon head unit is one such module it has 4 buss ports. One is for a iTemp probe and the others are for buss cables. The connectors on these cables are RJ type connectors just like the ones on phone cords or network cables. I have part of the system at the tank and the rest in the garage along with the DI sotrage for ATO and fresh Salt water for auto water changes. All controlled with the Archon.

4. work with equipment I already have jebao pumps & photov2 lighting are the main ones.

The Archon head unit has 4 0-10v outputs that can be used to control controllable pumps. Two of these have the same connectors as the APC module ( pump control module). The DCI module can be used with these outputs. It is the interface to controllable Jebao pumps. Not all the Jebao pumps can be controlled with non Jebao controllers. As far as the PhotoV2, I am not familar with them. Are the controllable via 0-10v or 5v PWM. If so then the Archon can control them. I have LED lighting that use the Meanwell LDD drivers which are 5v PWM. I use the 2 Archon PWM channels along with 4 channels on a AVC (voltage control module) module set to 5v PWM. This give me 6 channels of control.

5. ease of use. no matter what you get there seams to be a learning curve but had a reef angle plus in the past that I could not get up and running.

The best I can do on this is show some screenshots. I will show the screenshots for setting up a heater. The Archon uses functions to control outputs with a input port and or alarms to control the output.

The screen shot above is the output webpage. It scrolls up and down through all the outputs. Scroll until you get to the output you want to setup and click the gear in upper right had corner of the output card. In this case the second output of one of the PC4's is selectd. Here you can change the module name and channel name (output name). Select a function from a drop down menu like below.

The drop down also scrolls so all the function are not shown above. For this select heater then click the show button. This will display all the settings for that function. Next select the input port you want to use to control the output as in the screen below.

In this case they are filtered to temp ports so all your temp ports will show in the list. The numbers listed as 0:7 are the module number and port number. The name after the numbers is the name you have given the port. I did not rename my temp ports so these are the default names. Next you would set the setpoint. This is the center temp you are trying to heat the tank to. I have it set to 77 degrees. Next set the hysteresis. In this case it is set to .1 which would make the heater turn on at 76.9 and then off at 78.1. The on when is preset for the heater function to below. This tells the output to turn on when the temp drops below the setpoint - the hysteresis setting. I think the on at night is also preset but you would want it checked if you want the output to run during the night time settings. The channel default on mine is set to off. This tells the output what to do if for some reason the power bar drops communication with the Archon head unit. This is how you setup a failsafe in case something goes wrong. If you want to set the output to react to alarms you would click show alarms. This shows all alarms in a scroll bar like in the screen below.

To attach a alarm to the output just click the checkbox to the left of the alarm name. Then select whether the output will go on or off when the alarm is active. Most of the time it will be off. As you can see you can select multiple alarms for each output. You can use the same alarm on multiple outputs. If there is a conflict the alarm closest to the top of the list will have control if I remember correctly. All mine are set to off so it doesn't really matter which one actually turned the output off. If you are interested in alarm setup I can post some screen shots of that also.

 

[BillyW]

I feel like I don't want a powerbar as controlling outlets is far too advanced for me, I just want to know what my parameters are, control my vortechs and lights, as my dj power strip works just fine. Are the controllable outlets really all that? I'll be honest I have no idea how to code anything if this happens do this and that, and it just confuses me. Trying to decide on the archon or the apex, as everything in my house is Apple, But I feel that piecing together what I would want would be more expensive than just buying the whole thing. What are thoughts on this?

 

[n2585722]

The Archon uses functions instead of coding to control the outputs. In the screenshot in the above post you can see some of the functions available. Depending on the function there are a few other parameters that need to be entered or set. As you can see from the screen shots It is simple to setup heater control as an example. You do not need to use alarms on the output, but they do help prevent a problem from getting worse. In that example I have float switches setup as leak detectors. The stand is capable of holding a couple of gallons of water. At about a quart it will trip the float switch. So normal spills that occur during maintenance will not trip the switches. The Alarms setup to monitor these switches are used to control whether an output is turned off or on when one or both of these alarms are active. In the case of a leak everthing is shut off on my system with the exception of 2 MP10s. Since there is no way of telling whether it is the tank leaking or a plumbing issue I chose for it to turn everything off except those two power heads. Alarm setup is done without coding also. It is similar to the setup of the outputs.

 

[Devaji]

Devaji,
I would have answered your post on RC but I will do it here. It is easier to post screenshots from my iPad here. All the screenshots are from an ipad with the Archon network selected for the wifi network. The default address when accessing via the Archon's own network is 192.168.10.1. You can change this if you want but I don't think there is a real need to.

1. web based platform where i can see and communicate while out of town. ( i travel 2x a year for 3 weeks at a time or more. )

The Archon is a web based controller. Once your router is setup with a ddns you can access the controller from anywhere with internet access. I have a Asus router that came with free ddns service.

2. reliability. don't what it to fail and crash my tank.

I have had mine since December 2014. It is still trucking without any hardware failures. I am also a beta tester so I usually get the new software to try before the general public. In the beginning there were a few software glitches. Especially with updates. The update process has been changed and that is no longer a problem. I do use this to control my 42 gallon hex tank. I was using a RKE before the Archon. When it was replaced everything was still working and it was purchased in 2008. I still use the power bars and most of the other modules with the Archon.

3. able to control more then one tank. with out a ton of wires running across the room about 20' is this even possible?

The Archon can control up to 255 modules so that can control quite a few tanks. The modules are connected together with their buss cables in a daisy chain fashion. So all you would need to run from one tank to the other is a single buss cable. Some modules have more than 2 buss ports and can be used as hubs where multiple module strings can be connected. The Archon head unit is one such module it has 4 buss ports. One is for a iTemp probe and the others are for buss cables. The connectors on these cables are RJ type connectors just like the ones on phone cords or network cables. I have part of the system at the tank and the rest in the garage along with the DI sotrage for ATO and fresh Salt water for auto water changes. All controlled with the Archon.

4. work with equipment I already have jebao pumps & photov2 lighting are the main ones.

The Archon head unit has 4 0-10v outputs that can be used to control controllable pumps. Two of these have the same connectors as the APC module ( pump control module). The DCI module can be used with these outputs. It is the interface to controllable Jebao pumps. Not all the Jebao pumps can be controlled with non Jebao controllers. As far as the PhotoV2, I am not familar with them. Are the controllable via 0-10v or 5v PWM. If so then the Archon can control them. I have LED lighting that use the Meanwell LDD drivers which are 5v PWM. I use the 2 Archon PWM channels along with 4 channels on a AVC (voltage control module) module set to 5v PWM. This give me 6 channels of control.

5. ease of use. no matter what you get there seams to be a learning curve but had a reef angle plus in the past that I could not get up and running.

The best I can do on this is show some screenshots. I will show the screenshots for setting up a heater. The Archon uses functions to control outputs with a input port and or alarms to control the output.

The screen shot above is the output webpage. It scrolls up and down through all the outputs. Scroll until you get to the output you want to setup and click the gear in upper right had corner of the output card. In this case the second output of one of the PC4's is selectd. Here you can change the module name and channel name (output name). Select a function from a drop down menu like below.

The drop down also scrolls so all the function are not shown above. For this select heater then click the show button. This will display all the settings for that function. Next select the input port you want to use to control the output as in the screen below.

In this case they are filtered to temp ports so all your temp ports will show in the list. The numbers listed as 0:7 are the module number and port number. The name after the numbers is the name you have given the port. I did not rename my temp ports so these are the default names. Next you would set the setpoint. This is the center temp you are trying to heat the tank to. I have it set to 77 degrees. Next set the hysteresis. In this case it is set to .1 which would make the heater turn on at 76.9 and then off at 78.1. The on when is preset for the heater function to below. This tells the output to turn on when the temp drops below the setpoint - the hysteresis setting. I think the on at night is also preset but you would want it checked if you want the output to run during the night time settings. The channel default on mine is set to off. This tells the output what to do if for some reason the power bar drops communication with the Archon head unit. This is how you setup a failsafe in case something goes wrong. If you want to set the output to react to alarms you would click show alarms. This shows all alarms in a scroll bar like in the screen below.

To attach a alarm to the output just click the checkbox to the left of the alarm name. Then select whether the output will go on or off when the alarm is active. Most of the time it will be off. As you can see you can select multiple alarms for each output. You can use the same alarm on multiple outputs. If there is a conflict the alarm closest to the top of the list will have control if I remember correctly. All mine are set to off so it doesn't really matter which one actually turned the output off. If you are interested in alarm setup I can post some screen shots of that also.

thanks for the post! I wish there was a online place where you could rent/ sample controllers. kinda like photography lenses. about the same price. I would love to get my hand son a few and compare then in person.

 

[Devaji]

I feel like I don't want a powerbar as controlling outlets is far too advanced for me, I just want to know what my parameters are, control my vortechs and lights, as my dj power strip works just fine. Are the controllable outlets really all that? I'll be honest I have no idea how to code anything if this happens do this and that, and it just confuses me. Trying to decide on the archon or the apex, as everything in my house is Apple, But I feel that piecing together what I would want would be more expensive than just buying the whole thing. What are thoughts on this?

OP, what did you go with and my? maybe I missed it?

Billy, I think you would find having controllable outlets handy. you dont have to use ( keep them on or off) them but knowing you can is a big plus.
maybe the syene might be for you?

 

[pickupman66]

I have had a ReefKeeper Elite since 2010. It has served me well. I was ABOUT to swap to an apex in 2014 when the Archon was announced. I held out and was lucky to be part of the Beta Group with Danny. At first, yes, the Archon had some bugs and we worked through them. Now, it is extremely Stable and reliable for my tank. I have personally experiemented with just about every function on the Archon With the exception of the Dosing pumps. Everythign else is Very intuitive. The interface has cleaned up and is VERY customizeable. Personally, I dont like the stock background so I changed mine. Currently it is controlling my Jebao WP25 Pair, my Wp10 and a DC6000 return pump. I have the return pump setup in a sort of Tidal mode where as it runs at 70% for 30 minutes every 11 hours. In between the high runs, it flows at 50%. This is fully customizeable.

Anyways, I do Repect the Apex as it is a Big name in the industry. I almost bought one, but Glad I stayed with the Archon. it is Fantastic IMPO.

BTW, shameless YOutube Plug here but Here is my YOutube Playlist of Archon videos. I made two yesterday. If you want to see something, Please let me know.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL930h2LW3OAvOXEQ_9Rxr_gzzLttCxmw6

 

[Devaji]

thanks for posting those ty vids that helps out to see the operating system a bit. I know it will help other decide too.

 

[Sleepydoc]

This is a great thread with a lot of good discussion. A couple things I thought of as I read through it:

• Regarding the cost of time: Like everything else, this is a personal choice and depends on your own skills, finances and how busy your life is. Time isn't free, but it's relative cost and value depends on who you ask. I started making my own Arduino-based controller a few years ago and got fairly far along but finally got to the point where I didn't have further time to devote to it and decided that I would never be confident enough in its reliability to truly trust it.
• I think Terrance has added a lot of useful information and while he obviously is biased towards his own system, I haven't noticed him being unfair, inaccurate or defamatory. That said, as one of the more frequent posters in the thread he has at times dominated the conversation. I don't believe this was intentional, but it does alter the discussion.
• Regarding the outlet strips - the new Apex 832's have additional outputs, but the value & usability of those depends on your equipment. I have BRS 120V dosing pumps & Tunze (AC) power heads, so they are of no use to me. Regardless, depending on those ports limits you to devices that can be connected to them.
• Matthias from GHL makes the point in the thread that he started that frequently, switches outlets aren't necessary if you have DC devices or devices that allow 0-10V control, and in some cases, this is actually preferable to switching the AC power on and off. Again, this depends on your system and the devices you have or plan on using. With my current setup, I have very little that can be controlled with a 0-10V signal, so it's a potential issue for me.

I've been eyeing controllers for quite some time and was initially interested in the Vertex Cerebra, but the fact that it was a beta unit, the size of the components and other concerns made me quite hesitant. They now appear to be in the midst of a significant redesign, so we will see what the future holds for it. For the time being, I'm torn between an Apex or a Profilux.

A couple of questions - GHL lists it's analog output as 1-10V rather than 0-10V. Is the lack of ability to go down to 0V an issue?

Can the 24V 1Link ports on the Apex EB832 be used for anything other than Neptune devices?

Neither the new Apex nor the Profilux controller come with a screen/control panel per se. I know you can purchase a wired Apex controller but does Apex and or Profilux allow for an external screen to display external parameters and/or use 'virtual buttons' for feeding, etc?

For those who have a Profilux controller, is it possible to fully use the system without windows (I know people have used BootCamp on their Macs for this purpose, but I'd like to avoid that if possible)

 

[Devaji]

This is a great thread with a lot of good discussion. A couple things I thought of as I read through it:

• Regarding the cost of time: Like everything else, this is a personal choice and depends on your own skills, finances and how busy your life is. Time isn't free, but it's relative cost and value depends on who you ask. I started making my own Arduino-based controller a few years ago and got fairly far along but finally got to the point where I didn't have further time to devote to it and decided that I would never be confident enough in its reliability to truly trust it.
• I think Terrance has added a lot of useful information and while he obviously is biased towards his own system, I haven't noticed him being unfair, inaccurate or defamatory. That said, as one of the more frequent posters in the thread he has at times dominated the conversation. I don't believe this was intentional, but it does alter the discussion.
• Regarding the outlet strips - the new Apex 832's have additional outputs, but the value & usability of those depends on your equipment. I have BRS 120V dosing pumps & Tunze (AC) power heads, so they are of no use to me. Regardless, depending on those ports limits you to devices that can be connected to them.
• Matthias from GHL makes the point in the thread that he started that frequently, switches outlets aren't necessary if you have DC devices or devices that allow 0-10V control, and in some cases, this is actually preferable to switching the AC power on and off. Again, this depends on your system and the devices you have or plan on using. With my current setup, I have very little that can be controlled with a 0-10V signal, so it's a potential issue for me.

I've been eyeing controllers for quite some time and was initially interested in the Vertex Cerebra, but the fact that it was a beta unit, the size of the components and other concerns made me quite hesitant. They now appear to be in the midst of a significant redesign, so we will see what the future holds for it. For the time being, I'm torn between an Apex or a Profilux.

A couple of questions - GHL lists it's analog output as 1-10V rather than 0-10V. Is the lack of ability to go down to 0V an issue?

Can the 24V 1Link ports on the Apex EB832 be used for anything other than Neptune devices?

Neither the new Apex nor the Profilux controller come with a screen/control panel per se. I know you can purchase a wired Apex controller but does Apex and or Profilux allow for an external screen to display external parameters and/or use 'virtual buttons' for feeding, etc?

For those who have a Profilux controller, is it possible to fully use the system without windows (I know people have used BootCamp on their Macs for this purpose, but I'd like to avoid that if possible)

Hey Sleepy Doc,
good post and observations I'll give you my feed back I was in the same boat. keep in mind these are just my thoughts and my be right or wrong so take it what a grain of salt...

I was in the market for a controller what i wanted was the web/cloud platform of fusion the hardware of a P4 and the price of a RA? to much to ask?
so after a lot of read reviews youtube videos etc. I narrowed it down to the P4 or apex both had there pros and cons in my option and I think either would be a great controller. with the new archon coming in behind as I hear they got all the bugs out.

APEX Pros:
a larger user base mean more help from other reefers. ( some say this is a con as you get lost in the crowd )
more controllable outlets on there power strip.
apex FUSION its a great platform.
the optics sensors are cheaper for apex than proiflux. I plan on using a few..
its light so you can mount it almost anywhere.
for the new unit probes and included..saves you $$ in the long run.
there pkg deal is $50 cheaper than the P4
they hold there value and more ppl looking for used one if you had to sale.

APEX cons:
personally I dont care for the new color design.
it feels cheap and plasticy...it is after all made of plastic.
I would give it a med. build quality on the power bar and head unit. its not bad but at the same time you don't think, wow this is a well made unit. ( maybe i think heaviness = better build quality?? )

Profilux Pros:
they seam to have better hardware. = more stable? (I am not sure this is 100% truth or not but it feels that is the thoughts on the forums. maybe as there are less issues as there are less P4 users? )
the build quality seams to be better. (I have not held one personally but it seams that way -maybe this is an unfair statement then?)
built in expandable card slots that is a great idea taken right out of the PC world. less mods. to mount on your apex board of goodies.
in my option looks better, more modern sleek and worth the asking price.
they do have a humidity sensor.


profilux cons:
at this time there myGHL software. is not as fluid as fusion.
power bar only has 5 controllable ports. with a one always on.
fluid sensors are 2x the price.
less of a users base if you need help.
having a MAC the thought of loading boot camp or the like was a turn off. just another step in the process I could do wrong. ( prob. would have been easy but just more work.)


so all the said it was a hard choice. I was thinking of a used apex to get me going in the controller world. but the more i looked in to it I would be spending over 500 anyway so might get the latest and greatest.

also something to think about it the sale ability and retaining its value. if you ever had to get out. you would like to get some of your investment back.

so I had to decide between the APEX or P4... wow what a hard choice. end the end I went with the 2016 wifi APEX.
for ME one of the big factors was FUSION. I fel the neptune apex spend more time ( better or worse ) polishing there web interface, web sites ect. and profulux spend that on the hardware. as once mounted more of us dont see the unit but work with the web portal I went with he one that was more user friendly and fluid. with is APEX. now I think GHL will get there but that takes time.

yes i believe both you can use an external tablet mounted on or next to aquarium. I know apex you can for sure. get a cheap kindle fire or what not and there you go. I am glad they did not force the controller on you and it highlights fusion.

I am not sure if you can DIY a 1link into the 24V ports on the eb832? I bet you can if your handy but may be some one with alot more knowable will chime in. as I have only had my for the weekend.

so there are my thoughts hopefully it helped other reefers??

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

OP, what did you go with and my? maybe I missed it?

I actually picked up an Apex classic and a Profilux 3.1. I'm planning to set them up on different systems and do some comparison. I think I basically agree with all of the observations you made in the last post regarding pros and cons. I also like the observations contributed by @Sleepydoc in his post. At this point, I think both are solid controllers and great options. I think for each buyer, it's ultimately going to boil down to which pros and cons you prioritize over others.

 

[d2mini]

I think for each buyer, it's ultimately going to boil down to which pros and cons you prioritize over others.

Yep, Devaji prioritized the programming interface, whereas I chose (and still would) GHL for the build quality and most importantly, the stability/reliability.
Even if I need help fumbling through the programming (which I do occasionally), once it's set up the most important thing to me is making sure it runs with ZERO problems.
5 years ago I felt more comfortable going with GHL based on what I saw (or didn't see) on the forums, and now 5 years later I have no doubt I made the right choice based on my needs.

 

[Devaji]

Yep, Devaji prioritized the programming interface, whereas I chose (and still would) GHL for the build quality and most importantly, the stability/reliability.
Even if I need help fumbling through the programming (which I do occasionally), once it's set up the most important thing to me is making sure it runs with ZERO problems.
5 years ago I felt more comfortable going with GHL based on what I saw (or didn't see) on the forums, and now 5 years later I have no doubt I made the right choice based on my needs.

yeah I was really really really tempted my GHL P4. I wish there was a rental programe where you could play with it for a week to se how you like it before you drop the $$ and that does whit all controller from apex to DA...sure would help out.

I thought about busted out the CC and buying all 3 and doing a review. then keeping the one I like and works best with me. then REALITY kicked in...haha

 

[Devaji]

@Sleepydoc I did find this cable on amazon its the 1link to bare wire so in theory you could use it in any 24V pump or the like and strip the cord down and rewire it to save a port. I might do that with my Tunze ATO if I dont go the ATK
https://www.amazon.com/Apex-1LINK-D...491937203&sr=8-3-fkmr1&keywords=jebao+to+apex
of course I am going to ask around to see what season apex users think...just thought I would share.