Black Boxes - Fire Hazard?

[n2585722]

I wonder how many people realize their Radions are not safety certified by UL, CSA Intertek etc. as well. Perhaps the black boxes add a label, the radions have none. They have CE but that is an electromagnetic approval, not safety.

CE is european approval very similar to our UL approval.
"
Description
CE marking is a certification mark that indicates conformity with health, safety, and environmental protection standards for products sold within the European Economic Area. The CE marking is also found on products sold outside the EEA that are manufactured in, or designed to be sold in, the EEA. Wikipedia "

 

[Brian_68]

CE is european approval very similar to our UL approval.
"
Description
CE marking is a certification mark that indicates conformity with health, safety, and environmental protection standards for products sold within the European Economic Area. The CE marking is also found on products sold outside the EEA that are manufactured in, or designed to be sold in, the EEA. Wikipedia "

CE is self certified and it you look at the radion documentation CE only applies to their radio module, no safety certification. The two standards they quote are EMC related. If they attest to the Low Voltage Directive (LVD) 2014/35/EU that is more related to safety but they do not say that. We get CE certification all the time with our products, it is not the safety we are talking about with regard to grounding, wire size etc.

In the Radion G4 manual with CE you must declare what standards you did the self certification:

CE Declaration of Conformity The equipment complies with the RF exposure Requirement 1999/5/EEC, Council Reccomendation on the limitation of exposure of the general public to electromagnetic fields (0-300 GHz). This equipment meets the following conformance standards: EN 300 328, EN 301 489-17

Also:

What is a CE mark and is it equivalent to a UL Listing Mark?
A CE Marking is a European marking of conformity that indicates that a product complies with the requirements of the applicable European laws or directives. The European Community established the CE marking system to ensure free movement of products between member countries and to remove internal barriers to trade. The CE marking is a legally required marking in the European Union (EU) and applies to a variety of product categories. It is usually a manufacturer’s self-declaration that the product complies with European laws and may not include assessment to safety requirements.

Because most products bearing the CE mark are not required to be third-party certified, are not subject to ongoing factory surveillance of production, and may not be compliant with applicable U.S. product safety standards, they are not considered to be Listed as defined in NFPA and ICC model codes and standards. For more information about the CE mark click here

 

[Cliff717]

I’ve been using sub reef for 4 years now and I LOVE them. All these rumors of fires without proof seem crazy too me.

 

[Fishingandreefing]

had mine on two different tanks for a period of over 2 years no issues and never heard of anything from my friends either. Some people automatically assumed things if you know what I mean.

 

[jda]

Most of the aquarium equipment made in China is not actually UL approved, they just put the stamp on there like they steal every other piece of intellectual property. Not all, but most. They are made to deceive and fool the buyer.

If you want to make sure, then check with UL before you buy a product... and check each piece... don't just check a Power Supply and assume that the rest is approved, or not.

 

[Glenner’sreef]

We’ve bought Chinese products for our homes for decades: irons, hair dryers, toasters etc. no real issues that I can think of. Hmmm?

 

[RJ F.]

I run black box leds. They have fans to keep cool and I mount them fairly high off the tank just to be safe.

As far as the BRS comments ago I believe he said he didnt trust them being cheaply made especially the power supplies. Imo that's what brs is there for. They tested the light and gave their point of view. At the end he told his opinion of why he wouldn't use one. To each their own.

 

[n2585722]

CE is self certified and it you look at the radion documentation CE only applies to their radio module, no safety certification. The two standards they quote are EMC related. If they attest to the Low Voltage Directive (LVD) 2014/35/EU that is more related to safety but they do not say that. We get CE certification all the time with our products, it is not the safety we are talking about with regard to grounding, wire size etc.

In the Radion G4 manual with CE you must declare what standards you did the self certification:

CE Declaration of Conformity The equipment complies with the RF exposure Requirement 1999/5/EEC, Council Reccomendation on the limitation of exposure of the general public to electromagnetic fields (0-300 GHz). This equipment meets the following conformance standards: EN 300 328, EN 301 489-17

Also:

What is a CE mark and is it equivalent to a UL Listing Mark?
A CE Marking is a European marking of conformity that indicates that a product complies with the requirements of the applicable European laws or directives. The European Community established the CE marking system to ensure free movement of products between member countries and to remove internal barriers to trade. The CE marking is a legally required marking in the European Union (EU) and applies to a variety of product categories. It is usually a manufacturer’s self-declaration that the product complies with European laws and may not include assessment to safety requirements.

Because most products bearing the CE mark are not required to be third-party certified, are not subject to ongoing factory surveillance of production, and may not be compliant with applicable U.S. product safety standards, they are not considered to be Listed as defined in NFPA and ICC model codes and standards. For more information about the CE mark click here

Yes, those sections deal with rf energy and electromagnetic energy. That must mean that supply is a switch mode supply which is high frequency. The higher frequency alows for a much smaller transformer than standart 60 htz. Most of the newer supplies are switch mode supplies. I would guess that that supply was at least assembled somewhere in europe. It would make no sense to have a supply tested in europe that was designed for the US unless it was assembled there and is requred by european law to be tested for rf leakage.

 

[Joekovar]

Now I can't help but wonder how many people have a few thousand dollars invested in aquarium controllers and instant alerts when something happens in those aquariums, yet have no idea how old the smoke detector in that room (or if there's even one in that room) is. lol

 

[Brian_68]

Yes, those sections deal with rf energy and electromagnetic energy. That must mean that supply is a switch mode supply which is high frequency. The higher frequency alows for a much smaller transformer than standart 60 htz. Most of the newer supplies are switch mode supplies. I would guess that that supply was at least assembled somewhere in europe. It would make no sense to have a supply tested in europe that was designed for the US unless it was assembled there and is requred by european law to be tested for rf leakage.

In this case and these standards are related to the 2.4GHz radio module they used, and not dealing with the power supplies.

 

[RobW]

Everyone needs to be careful on seeing the UL label on a product. Many times its just the power supply that was sent to UL for testing , not the whole fixture. Also look closely at the UL label, I have seen Christmas lights that had the UL label, but the word listed was no where to be found. If the word listed is not written on the UL label, it has not been tested. I ran into that issue with a city inspector once on romex/cable connectors. They where listed for romex, but not for cable even though it was written on the box. I had to change about five hundred of them out to make everyone happy.

Which connectors were they? I'm an electrical contractor myself. When you say romex but not cable.... were they not rated for "NM?" I use the black Arlington button style connectors a lot. I hate T&B's!

 

[n2585722]

In this case and these standards are related to the 2.4GHz radio module they used, and not dealing with the power supplies.

OK, that makes sense then. The fixture itself may be sold in europe. I thought we were discussing the power supply. That would be the most likely be the cause of any fire. I have worked on consumer electronics for years. I cannot say whether the black box supplies would have some type of fusing in them, but the supplies from the major brands do. This would greatly reduce the chance of a major incident.

 

[Joekovar]

I guess the weak point in a Blackbox is the high voltage going into the box.

I have to agree. Of the 3 pieces of equipment I've picked up lately, all 3 came with bulky wall wart type power supplies that got pretty warm. The interesting part was that they have a green LED on the wall wart that if I disconnect the barrel connector that connects the device to the transformer, before unplugging the transformer from the wall, that green LED stays on for about a minute before it starts to fade away.

 

[Oldsalt]

Being an ex USNavy Avionics technician, anything electric/electronic has the potential to catch fire. For this reason it's a good idea to make sure that you buy UL (in the USA) tested and approved goods. Most developed countries have similar labs that test goods. Here's an example of how a company in Australia copped a huge fine for ignoring electrical standards for water pumps:

Pump importer prosecuted for Townsville electrocution death

Two years after a woman was electrocuted by a submersible pump in the backyard well of a Townsville home, the importer and online seller of the pump has been fined $1.2 million for failing to meet his obligations under electrical safety laws.

www.worksafe.qld.gov.au

 

[Hemmdog]

@Philipgonzales3 had a black box fuge light that caught fire / heavy smoking, very recently. It’s on his build thread I believe.

 

[Fishingandreefing]

So all these so call high end fancy smanch radion, Mp pumps and Red Sea products made in China too? Keep seeing hobbyists posting with issues.

 

[StatelineReefer]

When I first got my CBB lights five years ago I went over everything with a fine toothed comb. Well, a long tipped multimeter probe.

The power supplies use cheap components, but they're also heavily overrated for their nominal output. I had to replace the caps a year ago with capacitors from a power supply I had lying around. One had started to bubble up, same symptoms you'd see with older motherboards and overclocked Radeon video cards. Aside from a little dust and cat hair (Unavoidable in my house) I didn't see anything particularly 'wrong' otherwise. I'd like to think that the power supplies letting the magic blue smoke out are a bad batch. But you can also tell that they're nowhere near as robust as a real UL rated power supply. There's limited redundancy to save on component cost. It really is the bare minimum to do the job. Even the tracework on the board looks low cost and haphazard.

I once read a thread on 'another reef forum' about one that did actually ignite. Had a post-mortem gallery and everything, from the images you could see it started at the 110v and moved across the traces, so this was likely a poorly skilled solder job, what EEs call 'tin whiskers'. Once 110v has a better path to ground than through a resistor, it will burn a board up quick.

 

[Fishingandreefing]

We’ve bought Chinese products for our homes for decades: irons, hair dryers, toasters etc. no real issues that I can think of. Hmmm?

Yup!!!!!!!!! Big brand companies see these comments and celebrating! Yah, selling light or pump for $400 pump that made in China and assembled in the good old Usa! I have been using made in China electronics for almost 40 years yet have not had a problem nor my friends or neighbors. Hmmmmmmm

 

[Phillips/reef]

I know several people that use the black boxes. There was some brands that did smoke a electronic component to just quit But never a fire. They narrowed it down to 3 brands that worked good with out issue. They just said installing in a canopy or similar without good air movement they would over hear and quit. So they suspended them over tank
There is a lfs had a tank setup with them and other China gear. To show how long the gear lasted and performed. To show u can get in the hobby cheaper. He did get pretty good life out of it. No,not like the name brand but over all decent. To be honest the tank was beautiful and if u didn't know you would think name brand gear.
But for peace of mind I will always buy a brand proven.

 

[stevieduk]

probably fake news put out by other makers of l e d lights to try and stop people buying chinese. I have 3 black boxes and love them