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I can’t speak for Randy but he appears to simply want honesty in claims made by those marketing products to this hobby.
Bolus dosing
- Thread starter Domi
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areefer01
2500 Club Member
I think we are long overdue to have tags over members names if they are sponsored or paid staff. Youtube does some of this but it isn't as wide spread on forums or redit, etc. Will help put content into perspective as one listens or reads through it.
Not disputing ones knowledge or expertise but I like to know what is behind the content being posted. Do they have a display? When was the last time? Are they sponsored, gifted, or paid by, etc.
Edit: FTCs has a law for example when an influencer has to disclose their relationship with a product and their brand.
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Apologies, but I honestly do not understand the point that you are trying to make.
Please do fix your post, you attributed a quote to me that I did not make.
Please do fix your post, you attributed a quote to me that I did not make.
This link seems to include a lot of the "science" behind the bolus method. I dont know if the maths would add up (considering the aragonite forming layer is tiny), but if I were looking for a reason to explain the "Carbonic Acid Battery", well, that'll do.
www.frontiersin.org
"While bicarbonate ions are transported actively and passively from seawater into the calcifying fluid, our model shows clearly that carbonate ions leaks out of the calcifying fluid. An increase of seawater carbonate concentrations, therefore, reduces the carbonate gradient between the calcifying fluid and seawater and thus reduces the leakage of carbonate from the calcifying fluid. Consequently, aragonite supersaturation in the calcifying fluid increases, favoring precipitation of aragonite. Ultimately, the precipitation of aragonite requires carbonate ions but, in the light of our findings, we argue that the origin of these is from the dissociation of carbonic acid and bicarbonate in the calcifying fluid rather than from seawater."
Frontiers | Quantifying the relative importance of transcellular and paracellular ion transports to coral polyp calcification
Ocean acidification due to rising atmospheric pCO2 slows down coral calcification and impedes reef formation, with deleterious consequences for the diversity...
www.frontiersin.org
"While bicarbonate ions are transported actively and passively from seawater into the calcifying fluid, our model shows clearly that carbonate ions leaks out of the calcifying fluid. An increase of seawater carbonate concentrations, therefore, reduces the carbonate gradient between the calcifying fluid and seawater and thus reduces the leakage of carbonate from the calcifying fluid. Consequently, aragonite supersaturation in the calcifying fluid increases, favoring precipitation of aragonite. Ultimately, the precipitation of aragonite requires carbonate ions but, in the light of our findings, we argue that the origin of these is from the dissociation of carbonic acid and bicarbonate in the calcifying fluid rather than from seawater."
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Hats_
Active Member
You mentioned previously that you don't like the tags, yet I don't see the relevance. Maybe make a seperate topic about it if it bothers you?
To me some of the tags show a little transparency and add weight to claims.
Also like mentioned before, how to enforce? Does everyone just have to spill everything about themself in the first post they make in a topic?
Randy Holmes-Farley
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Correct, and as was finally realized above, it is a specific set of comments by Fauna Marin that I was commenting on. I don’t always agree with some Tropic Marin recommendations, but those are typically opinions (such as dosing AFR by alk rather than the calcium they recommend) rather than misinformation (as provided by Fauna Marin) as this thread is mostly about.
Ive see the opposite effect over my 4 years of twice a day alkalinity monitoring (alkatronic at 7AM and 7PM). I have consistently had higher alk consumption during the day time when compared to night time. I dose over twice the volume of kalk over my daytime than at night in order to keep alk stable.As it happens I've been monitoring the Alk on my tank (as accurately as I can with a salifert test) and it definitely consumes more at the end of the photoperiod and into the darkness, thus lowering alk. I wonder if they tried adding bicarb during these times to bolster it as it's consumed? I normally add my bit of bicarb in the morning, but going to give it the switcheroo and do it at lights down, and watch the magic happen
Randy Holmes-Farley
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This link seems to include a lot of the "science" behind the bolus method. I dont know if the maths would add up (considering the aragonite forming layer is tiny), but if I were looking for a reason to explain the "Carbonic Acid Battery", well, that'll do.
Frontiers | Quantifying the relative importance of transcellular and paracellular ion transports to coral polyp calcification
Ocean acidification due to rising atmospheric pCO2 slows down coral calcification and impedes reef formation, with deleterious consequences for the diversity...
"While bicarbonate ions are transported actively and passively from seawater into the calcifying fluid, our model shows clearly that carbonate ions leaks out of the calcifying fluid. An increase of seawater carbonate concentrations, therefore, reduces the carbonate gradient between the calcifying fluid and seawater and thus reduces the leakage of carbonate from the calcifying fluid. Consequently, aragonite supersaturation in the calcifying fluid increases, favoring precipitation of aragonite. Ultimately, the precipitation of aragonite requires carbonate ions but, in the light of our findings, we argue that the origin of these is from the dissociation of carbonic acid and bicarbonate in the calcifying fluid rather than from seawater."
Excuse me if this is obvious, but I don’t see how this relates to the issue at hand.
I think that whole paragraph just discusses some of the uncertainty of how alk gets from the seawater to the base of the coral tissue/skeleton interface where carbonate precipitates to firm aragonite.
Is it bicarbonate working its way in, in which case there is a proton to get rid of (which will temporarily combine with another bicarbonate to form carbonic acid until either the proton or carbonic acid is ejected from thst space:
2HCO3- —> CO3– + H2CO3
Or does alk work its way down t the calcifying space as carbonate?
I am not aware of any way these can be distinguished without determining the exact transporting proteins present and what exactly they transport. Both mechanisms gives higher calcification rates at higher pH and higher alk.
KStatefan
2500 Club Member
I must of missed that post about Tropic Marin but there are lots of examples of company marketing materials having incorrect info in it. Anything a company publishes is marketing it might contain science but it is still marketing.
Yes, I'm not saying this is how the bolus effect "works" but rather if I was looking for confirmation of a "bolus" theory, I would probably stop looking after coming across this link. I'm wondering how much bolus "research" has actually been done by FM considering all the other papers that I could understand seem to point to uncertainty in the actual calcification mechanism, even multiple mechanisms, perhaps.
Edit - In short I'm sceptical they know anything about how this "bolus" improves anything (they do state apparent improvements in coral health, for example).
Edit - another edit, I'll paraphrase this but in an early video, "we don't know how it works" a later video "it will take too long to explain how it works", which is another oddity.
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The need to publish ‘content’ and be ‘followed’ for marketing and ego often results in useless bloviation and pontification thats truth is measured in likes, follows and viral sharing, not fact, science or reality.
Hopefully @Welsh Reefer. has done his "normal" bicarb test by now, to see if half of it disappears.
Ok. This seems to have gone quiet. I can't still find any data that a bolus dose is beneficial in any form. My first instinct, that the long photoperiod is responsible for any benefit, still stands. I'm waiting for evidence contrary.
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twentyleagues
2500 Club Member
I am still stuck on the massive (possibly) dose of alk and where it goes so fast that it doesnt cause precipitation or coral burning. Even back in the early 2000s using 2 part I split my dose in at least 2. At one point I was hand dosing over 2.5 dkh a day all that at once was not good. Once I got a carx and was using kalk through my ato everything got more stable and things grew better and stopped just surviving, that was in maybe 2005.
Pod_01
Valuable Member
The idea is to dose bicarbonate, I have not seen precipitation from FM bicarbonate (I also don’t dump it in, probably the 70ml takes 15 minutes), I suspect there is some precipitation but my Mk1 eyeball has not seen it.
High pH liquids will have precipitation, I would not dose those in one continuous dose. The pH shock alone may be detrimental.
Coral burn, none yet… Actually I am bit surprised, things are stable for now. The alk results I get are puzzling, bit of a raise , flat and a bit of a drop, rinse and repeat next day. Before I dosed 60ml now it is 70ml.
Hats_
Active Member
page 11 post #204
