Bolus dosing

[areefer01]

page 11 post #204

Ah - I got you. Thank you. Not the same. In that post I was talking about the challenge card being thrown down in the middle of a discussion. You know - mature reef large colonies vs new tank or a full of 1/4" frags. Proof. Doesn't matter what hobby but sometimes it comes up to give a bit of street credit if you will. I was saying I hear you and acknowledging it while saying we as a community need to look past the badge or post count. In my opinion.

In our current discussion, you and I, I am actually talking about the FTC influencer guideline and/or law. You can do a search on it as it is real. The context for that is that the influencer or content creator needs to make it known, or should, that they are paid or given things as a promotion when talking about something. Sponsor, paid staff, gift, etc so the viewer will be aware.

Maybe it isn't the same and I am over thinking it...

 

[Hats_]

Ah - I got you. Thank you. Not the same. In that post I was talking about the challenge card being thrown down in the middle of a discussion. You know - mature reef large colonies vs new tank or a full of 1/4" frags. Proof. Doesn't matter what hobby but sometimes it comes up to give a bit of street credit if you will. I was saying I hear you and acknowledging it while saying we as a community need to look past the badge or post count. In my opinion.

In our current discussion, you and I, I am actually talking about the FTC influencer guideline and/or law. You can do a search on it as it is real. The context for that is that the influencer or content creator needs to make it known, or should, that they are paid or given things as a promotion when talking about something. Sponsor, paid staff, gift, etc so the viewer will be aware.

Maybe it isn't the same and I am over thinking it...

i get that, i just dont see the connection to this topic, so that is why I asked

 

[Garf]

The instructions say that the bolus dose can be added to the return pump section, manually. Tried that today (my bicarb dose makes up a tiny fraction of Alkalinity consumption). My lepto immediately spewed it's guts out. I noticed this effect years ago with mushrooms when messing with undissolved Alk additives. Annoyingly this lepto is immediately underneath where until recently (STN'd) a millepora resided. It's amazing what you can see with the lights on, back to adding my bicarb slowly.

 

[Pod_01]

My lepto immediately spewed its guts out. I noticed this effect years ago with mushrooms when messing with undissolved Alk additives.

Did you add powder or liquid?

Some quick pics:

So far all seems good.

 

[Garf]

Did you add powder or liquid?

Some quick pics:

So far all seems good.

Liquid. You adding it slow?

 

[Pod_01]

Liquid. You adding it slow?

Yes I am, 15 minutes for 70ml. Just doesn’t feel right to dump it in.

I got no science to support if dumping it in or slow dose is better.

 

[Garf]

15 minutes for 70ml

0.5 second for 20ml, lol

 

[carbl]

I remembered I once figured out the mixing ratio of carbonate and bicarbonate in the Tropic Marin original Balling B component. 19% carbonate. So I also mixed 19 grams/L carbonate with 81 grams of bicarbonate in 1 Liter. Low and behold, that solution had a pH of 8.7...
Alas, I couldn't find any Original Balling B to verify.

Could be coincidence, could be not.
The KH content of that mix would be 3700 KH/L instead of 5000. 26% difference.

In a german forum somebody told that according to an older facebook entry, faunamarin carbonate mix contains 2/3 biocarbonate and 1/3 carbonate + some other unnamed substances. Would that hit the 5000KH/l ?
This information is not an official statement from faunamarin!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

In a german forum somebody told that according to an older facebook entry, faunamarin carbonate mix contains 2/3 biocarbonate and 1/3 carbonate + some other unnamed substances. Would that hit the 5000KH/l ?
This information is not an official statement from faunamarin!

It could. The unnamed substances are presumably the peptide noted
above, but could be other things too.

 

[ReneReef]

In a german forum somebody told that according to an older facebook entry, faunamarin carbonate mix contains 2/3 biocarbonate and 1/3 carbonate + some other unnamed substances. Would that hit the 5000KH/l ?
This information is not an official statement from faunamarin!

By KH:
1/3 of 5000 KH/L = 1666.667 KH = 31.5 grams Na2CO3
2/3 = 3333.333 KH/L = 100 grams NaHCO3
That would mean a total of 131.5 grams per liter, 31.5 gram to much.

By weight:
1/3 of 100 grams = 33.333 = 1764 KH/L from sodium carbonate
2/3 of 100 grams = 66.667 = 2225 KH/L from sodium bicarb
Total = 3989 KH/L, not enough.

It could. The unnamed substances are presumably the peptide noted
above, but could be other things too.

Am I forgetting something in the calculation above or is it indeed not possible to make the numbers add up?

Unless they are using hydroxide, they already need ~100% carbonate to get 5000 KH in 100 grams of substance. A peptide is a short chain of amino acids. Compared to carbonate those are rather large (and heavy) molecules.

5000KH of sodium carbonate is 94.5 grams.
Theoretically, what worthwhile could 5.5 grams of a peptide do?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

By KH:
1/3 of 5000 KH/L = 1666.667 KH = 31.5 grams Na2CO3
2/3 = 3333.333 KH/L = 100 grams NaHCO3
That would mean a total of 131.5 grams per liter, 31.5 gram to much.

By weight:
1/3 of 100 grams = 33.333 = 1764 KH/L from sodium carbonate
2/3 of 100 grams = 66.667 = 2225 KH/L from sodium bicarb
Total = 3989 KH/L, not enough.

There is vagueness in that statement that makes calculation complicated.

1/3 of total alk?
1/3 of alk from bicarbonate and carbonate only?
1/3 of mass?

Do the unnamed substances add alk?

Are the 1/3 values before or after unnamed substances shift the balance?

 

[ReneReef]

There is vagueness in that statement that makes calculation complicated.

1/3 of total alk?
1/3 of alk from bicarbonate and carbonate only?
1/3 of mass?

Do the unnamed substances add alk?

Are the 1/3 values before or after unnamed substances shift the balance?

I’ll rephrase:
Theoretically, using carbonate and bicarbonate how many different ways are there to fit 5000 KH into 100 grams of substance including additives?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I’ll rephrase:
Theoretically, using carbonate and bicarbonate how many different ways are there to fit 5000 KH into 100 grams of substance including additives?

Fair point. There are lots of statements attributed to FM in describing this material that cannot all be true at the same time. I do not know which of them reflect reality.

 

[MichaelM]

The question I guess would be - what happens to the pH when the light goes on - but nothing is dosed. I'm not saying there is no need to dose, just that it doesn't seem like it's the product thats doing anything magical, but rather the light. If you dosed the alk at 10PM, what would the difference be

That I checked this weekend when dosing 1.5h after the lights went on. PH was slightly lower then, like 8.0 oppposed to 8.1 with the bolus. So this is well within the error margin (simple drip indicator test). The lighting seems to be a key component.
I also tested the pH directly after dosing and it was slightly higher. Could this already be attributed to the buffering effect of a higher alkalinity?

From everything I have seen and read I would say that the ‚magic‘ is indeed only a turbo start of lighting and therefor photosynthesis wich results in higher pH early in the day. The higher alk also contibutes to that and some traces might help as well. A higher pH is supposedly beneficial and probably the reason for all the claims that are made (obviosly growth but also the resiliency against diseases/infections).
The not so nice part is the way FM tries to explain the workings and that we are left wondering about the KH mix.

I will continue with bolus (wanted to get rid of dosing pumps) and see what happens when the daily alk demand rises and the one shot dose has to deliver 2dKh as in my previous tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I also tested the pH directly after dosing and it was slightly higher. Could this already be attributed to the buffering effect of a higher alkalinity?

No, it’s because your stated method cannot reliably detect the known pH drop because it is smaller than the granularity of your test.

 

[elysics]

In the last video he stated that this alkalinity topping out and being stable for hours effect neither happens just because of the light schedule or just because of the bicarb all at once but only if you do both

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Seawater alk at pH 8 is 89.8% bicarbonate and 6.7% carbonate (remainder other stuff such as borate). That's entirely independent of how one gets there.

Why would this stable alk then not always happen?

Answer: it either does always happen, or it doesn't happen after bolus dosing.

 

[Jari81]

Well in this German book from 1963 it is recommended to buffer up PH in an Aquarium safely
to 8.3 - 8.4 PH, with a mixture of 6 parts bicarbonate to 1 part carbonate.

So that's my guess what the mixture is more or less.
Also I highly doubt they had dosing pumps back then, nor did they keep corals.

Just shows how old "Bolus" dosing actually is.

 

[Skep18]

Looks like Fauna Marin did an update video on their Bolus Method. Just posting as it seems relevant to this discussion. This subject has caught my interest as of lately for a number of reasons. Just eating popcorn and watching. Always interested in the perspectives of those in this forum.


EDIT: Just finished watching it. I had previously watched the whole interview on this subject with Adam from Frag Garage Corals. Not sure how to ask the questions but some points caught my attention.

1. Claims such as pH goes up along with carbonic acid seems counter intuitive to me.

2. "The most important thing is how many alkalinity I need during the day." (27:36 time stamp) I was a little surprised by. I thought I'd heard corals grow at night too. But Idk for sure.

3. I did think it was interesting, the claim the bolus style dosing created halogens that protect the corals from the high light. I'm not sure I know what that means but would love to hear from someone smarter than me.

4. Is it just me or did the sodium carbonate solution beaker with the precipitation fully dissolve into the water when he stirred it a second time? (16:56 time stamp) He claims the particles were simply broken into smaller particle sizes. Again, I'm not educated enough to confirm or refute that claim but would love to hear from others.

(By others I certainly intend to target @Randy Holmes-Farley . Not to exclude others...)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Looks like Fauna Marin did an update video on their Bolus Method. Just posting as it seems relevant to this discussion. This subject has caught my interest as of lately for a number of reasons. Just eating popcorn and watching. Always interested in the perspectives of those in this forum.

I don’t generally watch videos. Did they change or clarify anything significant?