Bringing the biodiversity...and the creativity. Game on.

[Scott Fellman]

Scott, You have inspired me to trash my marine pure and replace with a Cryptic refugium

Oh, no "trashing"- we call it "iterating!"

 

[Flippers4pups]

Exciting to hear!

I think it's easy for us as a hobby to overlook this stuff. When you really think about it, all of the gear and technology that we embrace is designed to replace or replicate what occurs naturally in the oceans, so both utilizing the technology and embracing the diversity and such is, I think, what will continue to lead to many advancements in the hobby. It's nice to hear of your experiments! I believe that from this kind of stuff, the hobby can only benefit!

Best of luck and keep us in the loop!

Scott

Oh, no "trashing"- we call it "iterating!"

Lol, "repurpose" the blocks. Door stops........etc. lol

 

[leahfiish]

Great article! There have been lots of studies showing that diverse ecosystems are healthy ecosystems, and I think that's true for our little reef ecosystems too. But I think there's definitely a middle ground between, for example, Paul B's methods, and a "sterile" tank. I believe thinking carefully about the creatures you introduce is really important. Real live rock, mud, and creatures from the ocean leave a lot of uncertainties about what exactly you're adding to your tank. Hence good qt practices. I have been looking into culturing my own live foods to introduce more diversity as well as getting some of the offerings of Indo-Pacific Sea Farms.

I also love your idea for a mangrove tank but I agree that cost is a huge prohibiting factor. I'd love to have a mangrove setup with fish from the Caribbean.... And another tank with nps corals.... And another tank with predators. But i can't even afford to fully stock my existing tank yet.

 

[Rakie]

This is the type of thread that needs a gigantic amount of photo's of numerous examples.

 

[Scott Fellman]

This is the type of thread that needs a gigantic amount of photo's of numerous examples.

Agreed...the challenge is that there aren't too many tanks set up that way...of course, the wild habitats are filled with ideas...We'll start getting some pics together!

 

[Scott Fellman]

Great article! There have been lots of studies showing that diverse ecosystems are healthy ecosystems, and I think that's true for our little reef ecosystems too. But I think there's definitely a middle ground between, for example, Paul B's methods, and a "sterile" tank. I believe thinking carefully about the creatures you introduce is really important. Real live rock, mud, and creatures from the ocean leave a lot of uncertainties about what exactly you're adding to your tank. Hence good qt practices. I have been looking into culturing my own live foods to introduce more diversity as well as getting some of the offerings of Indo-Pacific Sea Farms.

I also love your idea for a mangrove tank but I agree that cost is a huge prohibiting factor. I'd love to have a mangrove setup with fish from the Caribbean.... And another tank with nps corals.... And another tank with predators. But i can't even afford to fully stock my existing tank yet.

Spot on! Absolutely. I think that, with careful addition of all sorts of stuff (IPSF's offering are a GREAT example One of my fave vendors ever!)- you can find that middle ground more easily than ever. And I think that's where most of us will end up...way more "diverse" than "sterile"- yet not quite "completely feral", either, lol. Moderation is good.

-Scott

 

[saltyhog]

Thanks for a good read. Interested to see if you have other examples of types of biodiverse tanks.

If I had the means/room for multiple tanks I'd love to have a mangrove set up! For now, diving fuels my vision for my reef tank. What we see when diving is far different than a mangrove ecosystem and that is what I want to stare at for now.

This discussion has inspired me to possibly consider culturing phytoplankton and copepods. Thanks again!

 

[Rakie]

Agreed...the challenge is that there aren't too many tanks set up that way...of course, the wild habitats are filled with ideas...We'll start getting some pics together!

I've actually found quite a few over time, I wrote this way late and didn't have time to find some examples I had saved. I'll take a look today and see if I can summon up a little of what I meant. Some of them are really beautiful. A few of them you could tell need insane amount of FW type pruning to keep looking ideal and not a mass of algae overgrowing one another.

 

[Rakie]

@Scott Fellman -- Here is some of my Saltwater Inspiration pics I've saved. Most of them fit the theme you've been pointing out, maybe a little 'less' natural (like the one with the Bonsai on top haha).

I'll have a follow up post with some FW one's too -- I think it's important to pull inspiration from many sources. You don't have to look at a saltwater tank to get inspiration for saltwater tank!

This one here is one of my favorites. Not only is it beautiful, but on the rocks you can see some really nice succulents. I called this one the "Desert Lagoon".

 

[Rakie]

Here is my follow up post with FW inspiration. If you look at these pictures down here, you'll see some of them could have easily inspired the saltwater tanks shown above. These aquariums are known as a Palladium, which is (self definition here) where land meets water, and both are well represented with growth.

If you look above in the saltwater tanks I pictured, my two favorite are the one with the bonsai, and the "desert lagoon", which is dark on the side... But if you look closely you'll see succulents grown on the rocks to the right side of the tank, and VERY simple saltwater softies that look both natural and beautiful in that environment -- Frankly, things I wouldn't even want in a 'traditional' tank (clove polyps, etc etc)

 

[Scott Fellman]

Here is my follow up post with FW inspiration. If you look at these pictures down here, you'll see some of them could have easily inspired the saltwater tanks shown above. These aquariums are known as a Palladium, which is (self definition here) where land meets water, and both are well represented with growth.

If you look above in the saltwater tanks I pictured, my two favorite are the one with the bonsai, and the "desert lagoon", which is dark on the side... But if you look closely you'll see succulents grown on the rocks to the right side of the tank, and VERY simple saltwater softies that look both natural and beautiful in that environment -- Frankly, things I wouldn't even want in a 'traditional' tank (clove polyps, etc etc)

All EXCELLENT inspiration! Thanks for sharing these pics! Lots of ideas here! Drooollll!!!

-Scott

 

[BluewaterLa]

Thanks for jumping in the discussion! It's important to have many different points of view.

First off, I think the "boring" thing is purely subjective, as you suggest...and one could easily make a case that a tankful of slow-growing Acros or Montis" is "boring." That being said, what excites ME is not what excites others. Having spent a lot of time exploring mangrove habitats in the wild, and playing with them in tanks over the years, I feel they're interesting and actually quite dynamic. Oh, and I think you'd be surprised how "sellable" seagrasses could be. That being said, I hope we agree that one doesn't engage in the hobby simply to recover costs by selling frags. And, I'd argue that Julian Spung's tanks (which I've seen in person many times) are featuring mangroves anything but "boring." Nor are they "problematic." While I DO most certainly agree with you that Mangroves and Seagrasses require a deal of devotion and care, I'm not sure how daily spraying and perhaps the occasional pruning and fertilizing of seagrasses is any more difficult or demanding that maintaining a significant reef tank, with calcium reactors, protein skimming, nutrient export, and a lot of important and potentially problematic (if you let them get out of control) parameters. I've seen plenty of reef tank over the years which have become "algae-fileld messes" when not dutifully maintained.

I agree that it's FUN to buy stuff and be active with your tanks...ALthough I may have some views on the need to constantly "upgrade" and such, it's purely my opinion (as expressed here and in each instance where I mention that kind of stuff). Again- subjective. Some people DON'T like to constantly buy stuff, can't afford it, and don't find it the best part of the hobby. And that's totally okay. And I have a hard time thinking that a diverse, well-manatined mangrove or seagrass tank is "just watching stuff..." We're talking about including corals and such, so...

And of course, the future of the hobby is definitely based i na large part on science backed research,. Never would I ever dispute that. And I'm not just throwing out "jargon." Biofilms are called "biofilms"- there is a lot of scientific information out there, and a lot of interesting stuff that can be learned from embracing them. They occur in many , if not all aquariums. They're probably more prevalent in these types of systems, but hardly novel. I don't see why using proper language to describe something is detrimental to promoting the understanding of something. And the "real world testing" is in part , the act of hobbyists studying this kind of stuff in our own tanks. Also, I am trying to promote a different attitude about some of the things that we in the broader hobby have looked at as "and" or "undesirable"...I'm talking about being open-minded...something I think you and I can both agree is important. Dogma and opinion are two different things.

The reality is that I think we both have similar attitudes; we just come from different points of view, and that's perfectly cool- in fact, I'd insist on it. Thats the stuff which drives advancements in the hobby! And yes, the idea of mangroves is not necessarily in and of itself outside the box (and I never suggested "new"-been done for decades). However, the idea of looking at them as the basis for a system; perhaps even designing the system around them, and embracing the algae and life and such, which are a collateral part of the habitat, as a vital and fascinating part of the system- is sort of outside the box, in this world of "ULNS" and chemical filtration, etc., etc. (oh, and I LOVE skimmers...). Again, we may disagree on the nuances, but I think we are kind of on the same page on many things!

I truly appreciate your feedback, and look forward to more discussion on these interesting topics.

-Scott

Very well thought out and put into words I must agree with your point of views.
I especially like the part about getting into a ''hobby'' with the intent on making money back off of the coral frags sold as this is not the intent of the ''hobby'' now is it, more like a home based business in my opinion if though of as a source of revenue or making money.
I think many people in this hobby today completely miss the point and passion of reef keeping.

 

[Scott Fellman]

Very well thought out and put into words I must agree with your point of views.
I especially like the part about getting into a ''hobby'' with the intent on making money back off of the coral frags sold as this is not the intent of the ''hobby'' now is it, more like a home based business in my opinion if though of as a source of revenue or making money.
I think many people in this hobby today completely miss the point and passion of reef keeping.

Thank you for the feedback. Look, I get it- this hobby can be crazy expensive...adn there isabsoltuely nothing wrong with making a business out of your hobby- I mean, I do that; many do. I just don't feel that people get into this as a hobby strictly because its some form of financial arbitrage or whatever. We are into it because we love it. And sure, if we want to sell some stuff or trade it (gee, remember when arg swaps are actually "frag swaps?"), everyone wins. I hate to think that people in this hobby or business DON'T have the passion for it- but I suppose it's possible. I had the opposite thing..I sort of lost my zest for selling coral. Nothing wrong with it, but I found that I was so into the selling part that I was beginning to lose the "love" for the coral itself...and I knew it was time for me to exit. Again, there is nothing wrong with selling, especially if you can maintain both the passion for the hobby AND the love of doing business in a fair manner...Win-win, IMHO!

-Scott

 

[BluewaterLa]

Thank you for the feedback. Look, I get it- this hobby can be crazy expensive...adn there isabsoltuely nothing wrong with making a business out of your hobby- I mean, I do that; many do. I just don't feel that people get into this as a hobby strictly because its some form of financial arbitrage or whatever. We are into it because we love it. And sure, if we want to sell some stuff or trade it (gee, remember when arg swaps are actually "frag swaps?"), everyone wins. I hate to think that people in this hobby or business DON'T have the passion for it- but I suppose it's possible. I had the opposite thing..I sort of lost my zest for selling coral. Nothing wrong with it, but I found that I was so into the selling part that I was beginning to lose the "love" for the coral itself...and I knew it was time for me to exit. Again, there is nothing wrong with selling, especially if you can maintain both the passion for the hobby AND the love of doing business in a fair manner...Win-win, IMHO!

-Scott

Sure thing there is nothing wrong with selling frags of your corals as they grow too large for your tank or you just made some frags by accident as we all do this from time to time. It was more the comment on making a good return on your investment that grinds my gears as this hobby is about so much more than trying to purchase the latest hot trending coral for a ridiculous price with the thought that one could make a small fortune by selling frags of it as a way to get a return out of the ''investment''
My point is there are more folks that miss the point of keeping a reef or even a diverse ecosystem and only see dollar signs one way or another.
Passion and interest is the only thing that would allure one into any hobby though I totally get doing what you love for a living.
All too often I get to listen to people talk about how they only buy ''high end'' frags / corals, which to me is no such thing but I digress, Only to hear them talk about how much money they are going to make fragging their supposed high end coral. I do not get it nor will I ever understand why the return from a hobby has to be anything more than the satisfaction of what you have helped create and guide, a flourishing ecosystem that is a personal slice of the ocean for our enjoyment.

 

[Scott Fellman]

Sure thing there is nothing wrong with selling frags of your corals as they grow too large for your tank or you just made some frags by accident as we all do this from time to time. It was more the comment on making a good return on your investment that grinds my gears as this hobby is about so much more than trying to purchase the latest hot trending coral for a ridiculous price with the thought that one could make a small fortune by selling frags of it as a way to get a return out of the ''investment''
My point is there are more folks that miss the point of keeping a reef or even a diverse ecosystem and only see dollar signs one way or another.
Passion and interest is the only thing that would allure one into any hobby though I totally get doing what you love for a living.
All too often I get to listen to people talk about how they only buy ''high end'' frags / corals, which to me is no such thing but I digress, Only to hear them talk about how much money they are going to make fragging their supposed high end coral. I do not get it nor will I ever understand why the return from a hobby has to be anything more than the satisfaction of what you have helped create and guide, a flourishing ecosystem that is a personal slice of the ocean for our enjoyment.

Spot on! I've went on and on about the "high end" thing.. lots of different takes on it, and in the end it's up to each one of us to decide what's most important. Granted, I don't understand that mindset myself, but I appreciate that some people derive much pleasure from it.. and it's okay, as long as we don't create an environment where no one can enjoy this stuff (and we won't ever get there, I'm sure)...

 

[Zagreus]

I really liked your article because it reminded me of why the mangrove estuaries are so vitally important...as in cant survive without them.... to the marine ecosystem. Thank you!

 

[najer]

Interesting and thought provoking as usual!
I had an extended powercut 6 weeks ago so work on the display fuge has stopped, the caulerpa is not being harvested and is growing like crazy.
The mangroves are still in the sump fuge.
I do clean the glass of the display fuge if there is something I want to keep an eye on.
There is a 3 inch swim through hole to allow the fish and creatures to go in either end, there are at least 6 fish that never leave the fuge end, the rest have the whole tank to play in!
I do run a skimmer now and up until the power cut I hadn't done a water change for about a year.
I've been studying the roots of the mangroves a bit recently and some of the pics above have given me new ideas, thanks.
I only have mineral mud in tubs in the sump at the moment, I will try and incorporate a tub below the mangroves when I move them in.

I figured trying to run a "natural" system (biotope, let's not start the "what is natural" debate!), would just take longer to establish (it has) and a bit of planning!

I am slightly addicted to corals so I do try and keep the algae in the display under control!
The tank will be 2 years old this weekend.

Simon.

DSC02922 by sshipuk, on Flickr

 

[mort]

I think most people just follow the herd and think a full blown sps is the be all and end all, whereas there's more fun in getting down and dirty. I've always tried to emulate as many biological processes as I can so have in the past run my tank with dsb, algae refugiums, cryptic zone and a few mangroves sticking out the top.
My problem with how I'd like to run the tanks and how I can is serious envy, envy at the things which aren't available here which are common to you guys. Mangroves and other tidal plant species, mud, live sand and associated critters, nice macro's simply don't make it over or are hideously expensive.

 

[needbiggertanks]

Im enjoying this so far. Started my new build with a bunch of mangroves. Added them about 3 weeks ago. Fingers crossed it turns out the way i hope.

 

[Slowpoke]

Awesome that I came across this. It's what I'm just getting started doing.

Working on the stand, waiting on the laminate so I can finish it, then it's game on. The rocks are cooking and I've got some 5 plus year old tank raised mangroves waiting to be the center piece.