Bryopsis Cure: My Battle With Bryopsis Using Fluconazole
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tonymacc
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Did you do anything to resolve the conditions that led to the bryopsis bloom?
If the tank is still swimming in some excess nutrients you have to expect someone to use them up!
I like to think that this often either means too many fish (which means too much feeding, pooping and peeing) or not enough corals (which eat all those things and cover up space where algae might grow).
The fact that cyano is the algae that showed up "should" mean that the tank has no available nitrates, but lots of phosphates.
But that's a guess.Can you post all your latest test results?
If you did something aside from all of that to take care of prior conditions, let me know!
Bryopsis bloom? , my bryopsis came in on a frag plug, I didn't know it was bryopsis at the time,I started removing it manually but it kept coming back, after some research I realised it was bryopsis and I may have inadvertently help it spread, after googling I stumbled upon this thread and had nothing to loose by giving this a go, I never had a massive outbreak of the stuff but was a case of nipping it in the bud before it got too bad.
Too many fish? I have 5 in a 220 litre system.
Params as follows, I test twice a week using salifert test kits and my params are pretty constant and don't stray from these as I use a doser and an auto topup.
Sal - 1.025
ph - 8.3
kh - 9.6
cal - 450
mag - 1450
am - zero
no2 - zero
no3 - 5-10ppm
po4 - zero ( has always been zero and has never showed anything but this)
prsnlty
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Very true!
I always dip my Frags in Bayer and I treat them with H2O2. Of course H2O2 does not work for bryopsis. If I see any on the frag I don't put it in the tank. At the time my frag tank was down. However this particular frag that I had I didn't see it but then a couple of weeks later it showed up. When I went back to the place where I got it from nearly all of their frags had it ...ugh. By then it was too late. We all learn and sometimes it's by hard knocks LOL.
As far as bryopsis goes and multiple treatments I would say to do it only until they're free of it. In most cases true bryopsis would definitely be gone by the second dose. Green hair algae on the other hand is a different story and This Thread is really not about that but many people have it and believe that it can work for them. However I try to get people who I know for sure that has green hair algae to use H2O2 and proper husbandry. I have found that most of them do not do proper water changes or do not use Rodi or change out the Rodi media when needed. Most of the time I try to help them through pm because I found that many of them are either embarrassed and/or won't admit it for all to see.
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NCreefguy
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As far as I can tell it has been around 8 months but someone may chime in with a longer period of time.
I've said this several times in the thread and I'll repeat it...I really hope that this treatment is killing all of the bryopsis(even the roots) and not just staying active in our systems keeping the bryopsis from returning until the level of meds are low enough. If it does in fact kill the roots as well,then the bryopsis won't return without reintroducing it into our tanks. I have not had any to return as of yet.
prsnlty
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It's possible the dosage could* be used at a higher amount and not cause harm. I personally stayed with what NCreefguy suggested as it was safe for his tank and so far that I know of everyone else's. Maybe if someone had mass amounts of bryopsis (or even gha) and tried 25-30 mg per gallon it might still be safe and possibly more effective. I don't recall anyone doing that though. If anyone has, please chime in and let us know.
mcarroll
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I ideally like to get into this before treatment.
If you don't already have your own thread to troublshoot and track your own tank, make one and link it back here (or just PM it to me...whichever).
The "Too many" I mentioned can reflect time, as well as population numbers, or fish size.
How old is this tank and what are the fish you have now?
Is there any coral growing in the tank so far? How much and how is it doing?
If you've kept NO3 and PO4 numbers like that (phosphate-deprived) since the tank's beginning, then it's not totally surprising that something strange developed. Balanced, moderate nutrient levels are best. It's easier to do this with a smaller bio-load than bigger one, IME.
If you systematically keep PO4 that low (with carbon dosing and GFO, for example), you hamper the growth of corals and everything else that's in the microbial food web, like the normal algae that might've supplanted the bryopsis at the beginning. Because it also messes with microbes at the metabolic level (not just as a "building block"), ultra-low PO4 can also provoke worse things than bryopsis.
I would ease-up on any PO4-export you're doing, with the goal of eliminating the treatment if possible.
At least reduce the treatment level to the point that there's always at least a detectable amount of PO4 in the water and no less. Having a small reserve of PO4 by allowing something as high as .05 ppm has been helpful to many people at this point. Some folks have gone significantly higher too, but there doesn't seem to be a need to go higher.
I named the thread "My Battle with Bryopsis using Fluconazole". If you don't agree with having "cure" in the title,you'll have to take that up with @revhtree as he changed the title to what you see now.
It's a dramatic title, I can't begrudge that.
I really just don't want this thread to become a victim of its own success so to speak.
Going by precedent, it can get to a point where it starts derailing people from taking basic corrective actions BEFORE treatment.....if not instead of treatment. There are good example threads where this has already happened so I guess I may be extra sensitive...
This thread, by contrast, has a tool that's actually effective....but (preaching generally here!)
Fluconazole is not a tool like h2o2 or even bleach that essentially "goes away" when we're done with the treatment. Most of the fluconazole molecules will go down the drain with the post-treatment water changes and go on to encourage resistant microbes all along the waste stream.
So we should try to encourage conservative usage as much as possible.
To anyone's knowledge, has anyone trying one of the OTC azoles? Clotrimazole, for example, is also an azole-based ergosterol blocker but is OTC.
Precisely the stuff I'm talking about.
I would love newcomers to the thread to get a basic set of questions about that stuff every time. (To me it makes sense if, ordinarily, they would be encouraged to open their own thread AND participate here vs trying to do all that within this thread though.)
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NCreefguy
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It's a dramatic title, I can't begrudge that.
I really just don't want this thread to become a victim of its own success so to speak.
Going by precedent, it can get to a point where it starts derailing people from taking basic corrective actions BEFORE treatment.....if not instead of treatment. There are good example threads where this has already happened so I guess I may be extra sensitive...
This thread, by contrast, has a tool that's actually effective....but (preaching generally here!)
Fluconazole is not a tool like h2o2 or even bleach that essentially "goes away" when we're done with the treatment. Most of the fluconazole molecules will go down the drain with the post-treatment water changes and go on to encourage resistant microbes all along the waste stream.
So we should try to encourage conservative usage as much as possible.
To anyone's knowledge, has anyone trying one of the OTC azoles? Clotrimazole, for example, is also an azole-based ergosterol blocker but is OTC.
I wholeheartedly agree. I think that as this thread has evolved it has taken the stance of "what other kind of algae can I throw this med at" in a way. This is NOT the way the thread was started or intended to go. I think honestly the real number of cases where people have/had bryopsis vs gha is somewhat lower simply because you get that feeling of "well I did a water change and it didn't die,must be bryopsis". People not knowing what kind of algae they actually have though doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to enjoy their tanks. Most of the time if someone isn't sure if they have bryopsis or not,we try to get them to take pics.(side note coming here) I have yet to find any info of any strain of bryopsis that doesn't have the fern/fan type blades on them.This seems to be a common trait. If anyone can find anything other than that,please send me a link as I have read tons of info and can't find anything different.
I have encouraged people to use the lesser amount of what was being experimented with from the beginning(because I chose the lesser amount and it worked for me).Someone else was using almost twice as much overseas. There were a few people who tried to use a smaller dose with mixed results. (worked for a couple people but not others). Twilliard is working with this med right now and running tests but I think he is fairly busy with school.
This is true but where do you think this med goes during urination and bowel movements while treating someone for infections? How much of the meds are used up by our body vs by our reef system instead of ending up in the same said waste stream?
I'm not sure if anyone has tried any of the other "azole" meds or not but it was talked about (cant remember how many pages back) in the thread. We were wondering the same thing.
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prsnlty
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+1I wholeheartedly agree. I think that as this thread has evolved it has taken the stance of "what other kind of algae can I throw this med at" in a way. This is NOT the way the thread was started or intended to go. I think honestly the real number of cases where people have/had bryopsis vs gha is somewhat lower simply because you get that feeling of "well I did a water change and it didn't die,must be bryopsis". People not knowing what kind of algae they actually have though doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to enjoy their tanks. Most of the time if someone isn't sure if they have bryopsis or not,we try to get them to take pics.(side note coming here) I have yet to find any info of any strain of bryopsis that doesn't have the fern/fan type blades on them.This seems to be a common trait. If anyone can find anything other than that,please send me a link as I have read tons of info and can't find anything different.
I have encouraged people to use the lesser amount of what was being experimented with from the beginning(because I chose the lesser amount and it worked for me).Someone else was using almost twice as much overseas. There were a few people who tried to use a smaller dose with mixed results. (worked for a couple people but not others). Twilliard is working with this med right now and running tests but I think he is fairly busy with school.
This is true but where do you think this med goes during urination and bowel movements while treating someone for infections? How much of the meds are used up by our body vs by our reef system instead of ending up in the same said waste stream?
I'm not sure if anyone has tried any of the other "azole" meds or not but it was talked about (cant remember how many pages back) in the thread. We were wondering the same thing.
mcarroll
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80/20 still-intact coming out of a human, from what I've read.
This is probably ideal from a treatment perspective since most of the drug stays active the whole time it's in us.
It's the opposite of ideal for the post-treatment time though....
In the waste stream, from what I've read, even under sunlight it doesn't degrade very well. Even the breakdown products are active and resistant to further breakdown. Most of the lit. on it is not free, so that's mostly gleened from abstracts...def. would like to know more on how it does or doesn't break down.
ksanfranfan
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I don't understand what you want me to change my poll results to.But the poll says "Did it kill ALL your bryopsis?"
If the tank's cured, there's no bryopsis right?
Thus justifying the use of a chemical like Fluconazole.
I do understand where you're coming from with the frag/reintriduction idea...but that's sort of my point.
I think we've been "duped" in a way – this is not a cure in the way that we need it to be. It only targets the symptom of a problem, and it only works while being administered. No protection is offered after treatment.
We would all be better off fixing the causes for the plague-level algae outbreaks we have whether we choose to implement this cure or not.
If a tank is ripe for algae and nothing is done to change that, either bryopsis or GHA (or something else) is almost a sure thing.
If we can step back and think about how we're using the meds in question, treating under these conditions might even be a little irresponsible on our part. When doctors prescribe this med it's under very strict usage and disposal guidelines – because it's a strong, important drug with significant side-effects for the user as well as the environment.
In the light of our limited position as hobbyists (no microscopes; no expertise), it would be awesome if we were being a lot more conservative with our use of this cure.
If you follow this thread's way of dealing with the problem by hitting the symptom with a medication – you've got a super-medicated tank on your hands.
This is not Vitamin C and sunshine that we're dumping in our tanks after all – so how long can that go on? (Drug resistant Bryopsis, or who knows what else, anyone?)
(Can the folks using fluconazole in their tanks absorb the drug through their skin from handling the pills or from the tank water?)
This is starting to feel more like the dino thread...repeating supposed miracle cures and not enough attention to other factors like cause-elimination.
I've explained my reasons as to why I'm treating one of my tanks again.
In the beginning I answered the questions in the poll as currently treating. After 2 weeks I waited a week or so before changing the results to both tanks 100 percent cured of bryopsis based on my own careful examination.
So, up until a week or so ago I've come across new growth of bryopsis in one tank. As I've mentioned, this tank has had new additions added over the last month or so. Rather or not my methods of treatment, precautions and diagnosis was effective with these new additions, I can't say but I always try my best to make sure.
The other tank which was treated at the same time and in even worse condition with bryopsis has no signs of it. Corals and coralline continue to grow in places that were over run with bryopsis.
So honestly at this point I can't give a true result of rather fluconazole did indeed absolutely 100 percent rid one tank and not the other. In my case there are too many variables.
How would you like for me to answer the poll with everything that I've stated?
Also, my intentions were not to rid either of my tanks of green hair algae using fluconazole and it's still not my primary focus. Green hair algae wasn't an issue in either tank anyway.
I totally agree with you about treating our systems in other ways that are more conservative to the environment and my approach too has always been to find other means of treatment rather than the chemical or med treatment.
I weighed all of my options before I did the first fluconazole treatment. I watched this thread from the beginning as well as the other one here at R2R and on another forum. I scoured the Internet for a short period looking for any and all information about fluconazole as well as the others in the azole family. I researched information pertaining to aquatic treatments with the meds, specifically for saltwater. I found information on various foreign websites, translated it to English and read the results of the treatments pertaining to bryopsis and saltwater species before, during and after treatment.
It's definitely not my intention to use fluconazole as a continuous treatment for my tanks. Many hobbyists use meds to quarantine and treat fish that can be just as bad for the environment.
I'm not trying argue or justify that what we are doing is safe for the longterm and the possible side effects but right now I'm trying to do what I can to keep an invasive species from taking over my tank as well as possibly being transferred to others.
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NCreefguy
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I too have found mostly info from abstracts and not much from full case study. Mostly everything I've seen though has pertained to the agricultural industry usage of azole antifungals. They've used azole antifungals for decades so it seems.
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NCreefguy
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PM me (so we don't keep derailing the thread) if you find any info on how much azole meds may be left in our reef systems after treatment. They have used this for treating infections in fish(dosing every 24hrs for 5-10 days depending on which website you read) for quite some time so there may be info somewhere. Only knowing how much stays active in humans answers half the equation.
Uwharrie
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The tank is looking great. No more GHA. Small amount of bubble algae gone. Corals looking good. I ended up loosing all my star polyps And pipe organ but the rest is recovering nicely.. All the feather dusters/ tubes survived. Still have a few snails but also still lose them
Only the peroxide dip worked for me in the end
Only the peroxide dip worked for me in the end
prsnlty
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Glad to hear your tank is looking as it should
Fluconazole as we know doesn't kill all species of GHA but is worth a shot when nothing else works. Most GHA will die using h202 treatments however.
Fluconazole as we know doesn't kill all species of GHA but is worth a shot when nothing else works. Most GHA will die using h202 treatments however.
mcarroll
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Glad to hear your tank is looking as it should
Fluconazole as we know doesn't kill all species of GHA but is worth a shot when nothing else works. Most GHA will die using h202 treatments however.
Right.
In an ideal world, it'd be great to see someone with hair alge (GHA) already have a separate GHA thread where they got help before they start anything here.
And another required repeat...
Can you also link your own thread here where you've recorded all your test results and what you've tried so far? Include all your system details if that's not already there too.
I'm afraid not. I can sum it up pretty well however.
Started about 3 months ago with some turf/hair/bubble/bryopsis algea. Not epidemic just annoyances. Started using Vibrant Reef Cleaner and it work amazing on everything but the bryopsis. The Vibrant also took out my cheato, well most of it and I just removed the rest.
After this my nutrients started going up and I well underestimated how well the cheato had been keeping them in check. The bryopsis started to go from a few small patches to everywhere!
Started 1st try, 6000mg for 300 gallon system. Shut off skimmer, carbon, and only ran filter sock. About day 8 bryopsis was getting its butt kicked but also a few of my SPS including a colony of acro (well established coral in my system). Decided to start skimmer, carbon and water changes. NO3 and PO4 had spiked at this point 30ppm and .10ppm respectively.
The acro RTN and luckily I was able to save one single tip, about 1/4".
Got some cheato from a club member and a very LARGE LED grow light.
In only 5 days NO3 went from ~20ppm down to ~4ppm! PO4 from .10 to .03 in the same time! This began one week after I started the skimmer back up.
Another week later started treatment again only this time with skimmer and cheato. Skimmer was set to run very dry. Grow light 12/12 lighting schedule. Never had any problems this time in fact my system did as well as it has done in a long time. By day 10 all bryopsis gone and system was fantastic!!!!
So I started this thread so that I can finally show off the result of all my battles in the past year and now the victory!
Bif's SPS Reef
https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/Bif's-SPS-Reef.303078/
I think the medication had no direct contribution to lose of the acro. It was because I couldn't control my nutrients.
Also I believe the first treatment would have finished off the bryopsis if I would have continued.
I see many of the problems being reported can be catalogued as either:
First: An upset balance due to changes made to execute the treatment. Should wait until the right time and not when contending with other problems also.
Second: mismanagement or poor maintenance practices before/during and/or after treatment.
Treatment works for its intended use, however to be done well you need to have planned it out well and expect to contend with the nutrient added equal to the amount of dieoff that WILL occur.
Agree?
Check out that thread of mine, quite proud, LOL.
mcarroll
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What was the lead in to this start? A big increase in livestock or some other disturbance, or was it a mystery and it just started? How old was the tank at this time?
Even the best bandaid – don't they come with ointment in the little pad now? – is only a bandaid.
Of course you hope your bandaid doesn't make your hair fall out!! Ack!
Vibrant + lack of aeration + huge wad of medication in the tank = unhappy critters
Happy corals are very resilient. I'm betting your established SPS didn't like the vibrant as much as you suspect (did PO4 bottom out as the vibrant went to work?) and the other changes just tilted things against him too much. If he was very mature, is there any change his flow situation had become marginal? That's a typical "cost of success" since they, and all their neighbors, grow to create maximum turbulence.
Those nutrient levels don't seem that high, but what had they been historically, prior to the bloom? Do you run the tank fairly bright on lighting? (do you know some PAR or lux readings?)
Dang-glad you could save a tip!!! I've had no luck in the few cases I've had to attempt a rescue like that.
Rarely a bad move!
Mission accomplished....albeit with casualties.
Yes...
...with the small caveat that you have to manage nutrients both ways....zero'ing out N or P isn't very helpful and can be harmful. (Whether you want to take the blame or consider that the V treatment was the cause...?
)Zero'ing N is arguably tolerated longer, especially depending on what your daily nutrient inputs are.
Zero'ing P can have worse consequences, much more quickly just due to the nature of it's many uses in coral and the rest of the food web.
Many good articles out there, some of which I have linked in the Nutrients section of my blog. Some goodies:
- Putting the N in dinoflagellates
- Impacts of nutrient enrichment on coral reefs: new perspectives and implications for coastal management and reef survival
- Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication
- Limited phosphorus availability is the Achilles heel of tropical reef corals in a warming ocean
