Building a display refugium tank - need help

[MichaelClark55]

For now, this s my 20G high display refugium at 2 months old. I almost lost it to Cynobacteria. Two weeks ago, I did back to back ChemiClean treatment on three tanks at the same time: 25/year Mature reverse flow undergravel filter at 100G, 10 year mature grow out tank at 55G and this 20G high a5 2 months old. This tank is on track to be set up in local high school aquatic science class where I establisha mentor program from a sustainable mariculture facility. I just did talk with AgriLife division of county agents office and I will be designated as a zero discharge mariculture facility. On site meetings are scheduled at my property. Development of State Guidelines & Regulations will be co-chaired by myself overseen by County Agent in conjunction with Texas A&M AgriLife resources. The County Agent & I will develope mentoring program and we will use high school students to help in writing state government SOP: Standard Operating Procedures for Mariculture in Texas. I am excited to have this vision encouraged by a resource as Texas A&M specialist at university level helping mentor youth in high school. They are our leaders. To invest in people is to invest in the future.

It’s rewarding to be a Texacan in Austin, Texas. It’s fun to be a Cajun Aggie in Austin, Texas.

Very cool. Love that you give your knowledge back to our children. I had cyno outbreak in the refugium when I first started it up. I added the small powerhead and it went away. Never treated it with chemical. After it seemed stable I took out the PH and so far so good. I love the sponges, what type are these and where do you get them? Russ's site is about out of everything right now. Probably because of the time of year.

 

[MichaelClark55]

This is the current state of my refugium. I started off with the idea of having a "pretty" display refugium. I added several different species of macroalgae from GCES, one of them being Prolifera. In this current pic that's all you can see because these plants grow like weeds! There is still some red macros growing in here but you can't see them for the Prolifera. In the middle of this mass is a large LR that I took from the DT. The live sand bottom is also from GCES. There's a "pet" peppermint shrimp in there that I feed by hand along with an emerald crab that I never see and a turbo snail.

I have thought alot about cleaning this up a bit but the success I've had with the DT since this has been running has made me want to leave it be. Can't wait to see the new results after I take the sock offline today. All those little creatures I've been throwing away!

 

[Subsea]

Right on with GCES, that's where I get my plants. I will check out Russ's book. Thanks and I have read all I can get my hands on from Paul B. His book is out of print. Do you know where I can get link or purchase?

@Paul B is recovering from 100% knee replacement < 30 days ago. We have known each other on line for > 15 years. Paul & I started reefkeeping in 1971. Paul & I we’re brothers in conbat 50 years ago. He was
Air Calvary in Cambodia when Johnston & Nixon both said “no boots on ground in Cambodia”, we laughed at the irony. I was too young to know fear, so I volunteered for four 90 day tours in the jungle. I was a crew chief on “Puff the Magic Dragon” an AC 47 gunship. When comrades called it in, we rained fire on the jungle. Last week, Paul said Puff saved his life in the jungle. I don’t know that it was my plane, but it gave me pause to release lingering pain for damage inflicted on innocents.

I have Paul’s ebook, which is available on line. I changed computers and it got lost in the cloud. I am sure you can get a link from someone at r2r. He is a funny Italian and a good cook. Ask him about who eats clams first in his house. He posted a picture with clam luiguinnie as the main course. The tank got the clam shells & scraps. In my Cajun house, the corals eat mussels first and I sometimes use them for stock in Shrimp Creole recipe.

 

[MichaelClark55]

@Paul B is recovering from 100% knee replacement < 30 days ago. We have known each other on line for > 15 years. Paul & I started reefkeeping in 1971. Paul & I we’re brothers in conbat 50 years ago. He was
Air Calvary in Cambodia when Johnston & Nixon both said “no boots on ground in Cambodia”, we laughed at the irony. I was too young to know fear, so I volunteered for four 90 day tours in the jungle. I was a crew chief on “Puff the Magic Dragon” an AC 47 gunship. When comrades called it in, we rained fire on the jungle. Last week, Paul said Puff saved his life in the jungle. I don’t know that it was my plane, but it gave me pause to release lingering pain for damage inflicted on innocents.

I have Paul’s ebook, which is available on line. I changed computers and it got lost in the cloud. I am sure you can get a link from someone at r2r. He is a funny Italian and a good cook. Ask him about who eats clams first in his house. He posted a picture with clam luiguinnie as the main course. The tank got the clam shells & scraps. In my Cajun house, the corals eat mussels first and I sometimes use them for stock in Shrimp Creole recipe.

Great story. You guys are just a bit older than me but not by much. I went into the Army in 74 and became a Ranger which to today has helped build my character. I definitely will look for his book. Oh, btw I had read Russ's book on his website already. I just skimmed over it after you mentioned. Reminded me I gotta trim my plants haha.

 

[Subsea]

Well ok then I'm convinced and going to give this a try and document the changes. You think I should take socks offline first or just jump off and take them out and close down skimmer all at once?

If you were doing advanced research, you woud need at least three differrent tanks running simultaneous.

You are operating a display refugium. Let biofiltration develope without interference from protein skimming. Discontinue both as soon as convenient.

 

[MichaelClark55]

If you were doing advanced research, you woud need at least three differrent tanks running simultaneous.

You are operating a display refugium. Let biofiltration develope without interference from protein skimming. Discontinue both as soon as convenient.

Took off the sock today that was filtering the refugium tank. I also have a 20 gal. sump with LR and bio spheres and sponge filters before return section. I should take the sponges out as well? I think I already know the answer.

Also noticed your sponges in your refugium. I was looking at some on GCES site and he has a purple sponge that he says can be glued to the glass and are very hardy in the aquarium. Have you ever glued sponge to glass? I was curious how delicate they would be to handle. Would love to place some sponges in the DT. I have some Purple Whims in there now.

 

[Subsea]

Great story. You guys are just a bit older than me but not by much. I went into the Army in 74 and became a Ranger which to today has helped build my character. I definitely will look for his book. Oh, btw I had read Russ's book on his website already. I just skimmed over it after you mentioned. Reminded me I gotta trim my plants haha.

Coincidental. Last night, I spoke with my nephew,who retired 4 days ago from “Force Recon in the Marine Core We had not talked in 7 years since we buried his father. I was impressed with his stature during this time and wanted to have that “Band of Brothers” moment. I had just spread ashes from two other brothers that died in the last 5 years. Frank, my youngest brother had fought Cancer for 10 years. He helped me fence in 50’ by 30’ garden during his last year here in Austin. Robert was a decorated Vietnam pilot on Caribou C123. Designed for short dirt runways, these airmen joked about not wearing parachutes saying “the fall never hurt anybody. It was the sudden stop.” They flew too close to the ground for parachute to open in time. When helicopters replaced need for short runway aircraft, this group of pilots were slated for B52 navigator missions. The navigator on a B52 is also the bombardier. Before training started, Robert refused to drop “cluster bombs” on civilian targets, he was Levinworth bound until two Cajun politicians intervened. Edwin Edwards was a contender for Louisiana governor and Russel Long was Committee Chairman for Senate military appropriations. Both knew my father from his early days as The Golden Rule banker. After 90 days of confusion, Robert was assigned “head of training” to formulate SOP’s along with rigorous QA & QC protocoal to train navigators. Robert was decorated & promoted to Major after training mission was completed for B52 missions that brought Hanoi to the “peace table”. We spread Roberts ashes on a New Mexico mountaintop. I kept some of that dirt and added it to my garden. I am at peace to know that I will merge my dust with my brothers who have past before me. I believe I will see

Took off the sock today that was filtering the refugium tank. I also have a 20 gal. sump with LR and bio spheres and sponge filters before return section. I should take the sponges out as well? I think I already know the answer.

Also noticed your sponges in your refugium. I was looking at some on GCES site and he has a purple sponge that he says can be glued to the glass and are very hardy in the aquarium. Have you ever glued sponge to glass? I was curious how delicate they would be to handle. Would love to place some sponges in the DT. I have some Purple Whims in there now.

I don’t know why I can’t erase the above. Computer skills of a dinosaur.

I have tried those twice from GCE and liveaquaria has red ones I have tried twice. It did not work for me.

 

[Subsea]

Unless you have a heavy fish load, Sponge is great for denitrification with nitrate as an end product.

I would not use an artificial sponge in a mature reef tank.

 

[MichaelClark55]

Coincidental. Last night, I spoke with my nephew,who retired 4 days ago from “Force Recon in the Marine Core We had not talked in 7 years since we buried his father. I was impressed with his stature during this time and wanted to have that “Band of Brothers” moment. I had just spread ashes from two other brothers that died in the last 5 years. Frank, my youngest brother had fought Cancer for 10 years. He helped me fence in 50’ by 30’ garden during his last year here in Austin. Robert was a decorated Vietnam pilot on Caribou C123. Designed for short dirt runways, these airmen joked about not wearing parachutes saying “the fall never hurt anybody. It was the sudden stop.” They flew too close to the ground for parachute to open in time. When helicopters replaced need for short runway aircraft, this group of pilots were slated for B52 navigator missions. The navigator on a B52 is also the bombardier. Before training started, Robert refused to drop “cluster bombs” on civilian targets, he was Levinworth bound until two Cajun politicians intervened. Edwin Edwards was a contender for Louisiana governor and Russel Long was Committee Chairman for Senate military appropriations. Both knew my father from his early days as The Golden Rule banker. After 90 days of confusion, Robert was assigned “head of training” to formulate SOP’s along with rigorous QA & QC protocoal to train navigators. Robert was decorated & promoted to Major after training mission was completed for B52 missions that brought Hanoi to the “peace table”. We spread Roberts ashes on a New Mexico mountaintop. I kept some of that dirt and added it to my garden. I am at peace to know that I will merge my dust with my brothers who have past before me. I believe I will see



I don’t know why I can’t erase the above. Computer skills of a dinosaur.

I have tried those twice from GCE and liveaquaria has red ones I have tried twice. It did not work for me.

Great family story brother. I have lost most of my family also. My wife and I were just talking about how we are now the hierarchy of the family now which seems so surreal.

I sent Russ an email asking for help with the sponges. Something I think will help take the place of the mechanical filters I'm taking offline. I am so freakin nervous taking down the mechanicals.

 

[MichaelClark55]

Unless you have a heavy fish load, Sponge is great for denitrification with nitrate as an end product.

I would not use an artificial sponge in a mature reef tank.

Ok, socks are out, skimmer is off, sponge removed.

 

[Subsea]

Great family story brother. I have lost most of my family also. My wife and I were just talking about how we are now the hierarchy of the family now which seems so surreal.

I sent Russ an email asking for help with the sponges. Something I think will help take the place of the mechanical filters I'm taking offline. I am so freakin nervous taking down the mechanicals.

Depending on how your tank circulation is, low oxygen when lighs are off is your biggest concern. Do you have a macro refugium on opposite light cycle?



I spoke for an hour with Russ this morning. I know more about sponges than he does. He gave two very important details: sponges are collected between 45’-25’ and they likehigh flow,

 

[MichaelClark55]

Depending on how your tank circulation is, low oxygen when lighs are off is your biggest concern. Do you have a macro refugium on opposite light cycle?



I spoke for an hour with Russ this morning. I know more about sponges than he does. He gave two very important details: sponges are collected between 45’-25’ and they likehigh flow,

Macro refugium lighting is 24/7. Haha well Russ is not very helpful on the sponges then. I keep flow rate in Dt about med. because LPS dominate, they seem to like it alittle calmer.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

Love the topic, and have lots (and lots) of thoughts.

Following so that I can remember to check back in if I get time.

 

[Subsea]

Ode to Condy

Night fishing on the Galveston jetties was a blast. In addition to speckled trout & flounder, condy anemone and peppermint shrimp were abundant.

I had first seen Condy anemone in a Galveston pet shop. The ones I had seen were blue, red and green. I asked the LFS owner where did he get these colorful anemone. I was led to a utility room with three 10G tanks colored blue, red and green each with dozens of anemone soaking up blue, red & green food dye. I was shocked at this and asked how long does the color stay bright. When he said a week, I asked him what he did about dissatisfied customers. He said they could buy another bright one for 50% off, if they brought the dull one back. I found that very interesting and it hatched a business idea for me.

Sell coral rubble as a pod condo, when pod populations are reduced bring the depleted condo back and exchange for a rejuvenated pod condo.

PS. My bad. This post was meant for a differrent thread. Ode to Sponge
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ode-to-the-sponge.551957/

 

[Subsea]

Macro refugium lighting is 24/7. Haha well Russ is not very helpful on the sponges then. I keep flow rate in Dt about med. because LPS dominate, they seem to like it alittle calmer.

I spoke incorrectly. I have more technical knowledge of organic & inorganic chemistry as well as more biofiltration scientific knowledge. Russ has hands on experience spanning 30 years of his life vested in his passion of all things “wet & salty”. I have known Russ for 15+ years. He is my mentor in this journey to know more about what we love. Russ only recently got into sponges & deep water NPS gorgonions. He was awarded the permit to do so. Florida is very structured with permit regulations concerning the environment.

So, in the last three years, Russ has collected a scant few differrent sponges until he developes husbandry requirements for these filter feeders. At this time, his focus is developing best practices for harvesting handling & transportation. He collects his sponges & gorgonions in two seperate places. One is in 25’ of water 10 miles west of Tarpon Springs. The second location is on a ledge 30 miles west of Tarpon Springs in 45’ of water. Both locations have unlimited water visibility when weather is agreeable. Not just hurricanes create turbulence down under. Winter storm waves create havoc, lifting boulders the size of my Lazy Boy even down at the 50’ reef. Sponges proliferate in this world. This area is home to the “Greek Sponge Fleet”.

Sponges are tuff stuff. When I see Tangs & drawf angels grazing on them, it gave me pause as to how resilient these creatures are. Earlier this month, I battled the worst case of cyno I have experienced in 48 years of reefing. Cynobacteria mat had engulfed yellow ball sponge to the point of seeing a maroon bump on the substrate. The mat was thick and peeled off easily to reveal the brightest yellow I had seen on them. More amazing to me was that the feeding ports on sponge were clean and healthy looking, albeit the sponge had lost 25% of its biomass to the cyno mat.

I regularly grab sponges and shake vigorously or create a water blast to dislodge algae. I often use a soft toothbrush to clean off. If required, I would not be adverse to using brush tipped with hydrogen peroxide.

 

[MichaelClark55]

I spoke incorrectly. I have more technical knowledge of organic & inorganic chemistry as well as more biofiltration scientific knowledge. Russ has hands on experience spanning 30 years of his life vested in his passion of all things “wet & salty”. I have known Russ for 15+ years. He is my mentor in this journey to know more about what we love. Russ only recently got into sponges & deep water NPS gorgonions. He was awarded the permit to do so. Florida is very structured with permit regulations concerning the environment.

So, in the last three years, Russ has collected a scant few differrent sponges until he developes husbandry requirements for these filter feeders. At this time, his focus is developing best practices for harvesting handling & transportation. He collects his sponges & gorgonions in two seperate places. One is in 25’ of water 10 miles west of Tarpon Springs. The second location is on a ledge 30 miles west of Tarpon Springs in 45’ of water. Both locations have unlimited water visibility when weather is agreeable. Not just hurricanes create turbulence down under. Winter storm waves create havoc, lifting boulders the size of my Lazy Boy even down at the 50’ reef. Sponges proliferate in this world. This area is home to the “Greek Sponge Fleet”.

Sponges are tuff stuff. When I see Tangs & drawf angels grazing on them, it gave me pause as to how resilient these creatures are. Earlier this month, I battled the worst case of cyno I have experienced in 48 years of reefing. Cynobacteria mat had engulfed yellow ball sponge to the point of seeing a maroon bump on the substrate. The mat was thick and peeled off easily to reveal the brightest yellow I had seen on them. More amazing to me was that the feeding ports on sponge were clean and healthy looking, albeit the sponge had lost 25% of its biomass to the cyno mat.

I regularly grab sponges and shake vigorously or create a water blast to dislodge algae. I often use a soft toothbrush to clean off. If required, I would not be adverse to using brush tipped with hydrogen peroxide.

Awesome info and thank you. I really am thinking of introducing sponges into the DT. I have spent most of the morning reading about them. Now I am more confused than ever. There is such a wide range of opinions on if they should be used in a true reef aquarium or not.

I did learn that air cannot be tolerated at all to the sponge when adding to the tank and has to be carefully entered into the bag for transport from the seller. I'm sure Russ has this down. Also that the most difficult thing is feeding them since the size of the particle they need is .5 mic and smaller, which is nearly impossible for us to achieve. And keeping algae from covering their feeding ports (as you mentioned cleaning with a toothbrush) Also matching the correct flow and light with the specific species of sponge.

I guess the thing that concerns me is that some say that since the sponge is competing for the same nutrients as the corals that the sponge becomes detrimental to the coral. Would you agree with that since the sponge is consuming bacteria that also feeds the coral or is it too small of an amount to actually make a difference?

I really wanted an elephant ear sponge that Russ sells but I also read they can get very large. Large size being an issue with getting enough nutrition and/or using up too much?

So all in all. I do want sponges but need to be careful in what sponge I introduce. Please feel free to advise. I like the elephant ear and the finger sponges but I think they are all very cool looking and would be happy with what works the best in a reef environment.

 

[MichaelClark55]

Been reading your ode to sponge thread and watched your video.

 

[MichaelClark55]

What do you think about these?:
https://www.live-plants.com/purplesponge.htm
https://www.live-plants.com/yellowball.htm
https://www.live-plants.com/elephantearsponge.htm
https://www.live-plants.com/redfingersponge.htm

 

[Subsea]

Awesome info and thank you. I really am thinking of introducing sponges into the DT. I have spent most of the morning reading about them. Now I am more confused than ever. There is such a wide range of opinions on if they should be used in a true reef aquarium or not.

I did learn that air cannot be tolerated at all to the sponge when adding to the tank and has to be carefully entered into the bag for transport from the seller. I'm sure Russ has this down. Also that the most difficult thing is feeding them since the size of the particle they need is .5 mic and smaller, which is nearly impossible for us to achieve. And keeping algae from covering their feeding ports (as you mentioned cleaning with a toothbrush) Also matching the correct flow and light with the specific species of sponge.

I guess the thing that concerns me is that some say that since the sponge is competing for the same nutrients as the corals that the sponge becomes detrimental to the coral. Would you agree with that since the sponge is consuming bacteria that also feeds the coral or is it too small of an amount to actually make a difference?

I really wanted an elephant ear sponge that Russ sells but I also read they can get very large. Large size being an issue with getting enough nutrition and/or using up too much?

So all in all. I do want sponges but need to be careful in what sponge I introduce. Please feel free to advise. I like the elephant ear and the finger sponges but I think they are all very cool looking and would be happy with what works the best in a reef environment.

Many so called experts spoute what the group feeds it. Air in Sponges is exaggeration and blog repetition. Neither of these scientist would agree to that.
@Lasse , @Scrubber_steve

Everybody compets for nutrients. I run high nutrient systems. The idea that sponges will outcompete coral for required nutrients shows a flawed understanding of the complexty of coral nutrition.

To simplify:
All photosynthesis produces DOC. Dissolved organic carbon is complex. Generally speaking, Coral DOC is composed of protein & lipids and DOC in algae is mosty carbohydrates.

Inorganic & organic chemistry is complex. Your technical sources from the blogs is weak in scientific evidence and reeks of conformity.

Read Steve Tyree on Cryptic Sponges:

Simplified biochemistry of sponges
Cryptic sponges consume DOC and produce DIC & Marine Snow”, both of which are food for coral.

 

[MichaelClark55]

Many so called experts spoute what the group feeds it. Air in Sponges is exaggeration and blog repetition. Neither of these scientist would agree to that.
@Lasse , @Scrubber_steve

Everybody compets for nutrients. I run high nutrient systems. The idea that sponges will outcompete coral for required nutrients shows a flawed understanding of the complexty of coral nutrition.

To simplify:
All photosynthesis produces DOC. Dissolved organic carbon is complex. Generally speaking, Coral DOC is composed of protein & lipids and DOC in algae is mosty carbohydrates.

Inorganic & organic chemistry is complex. Your technical sources from the blogs is weak in scientific evidence and reeks of conformity.

Read Steve Tyree on Cryptic Sponges:

Simplified biochemistry of sponges
Cryptic sponges consume DOC and produce DIC & Marine Snow”, both of which are food for coral.

OK, I get what you are saying in broad strokes. I am an Architect, not an engineer so I only understand about half of what you higher educated guys are even talking about. Haha. However, I am willing to learn, thank you for your continued help. Going to order some sponge from Russ.