Buyer Beware: Misleading LED Fixture Output

Pmj · Sep 21, 2018

TheHarold said:
Right- potentially, if these cheap fixtures were using the newest and greatest of LED technology, their wattage could be less and yet they output equivalent par. But we are talking about the cheap fixtures that even use that meager 60w at an even worse par/watt efficiency!

People are picking at tiny details, when in the end, my point still stands and manufacturers are trying to fool people into thinking that their fixtures are as powerful as others.

They are fooling people into thinking it's more powerful than it actually is, because lots of customers still think wattage is the most important thing.

The PAR output on the black boxes is pretty good in general and awesome in terms of par/cost. A radion is not "2-3x" the par of a blackbox.

Pmj · Sep 21, 2018

That's not to say a radion is not a lot better than a black box, but most reefers don't have wall to wall SPS and a black box would work great. I have a lot of money into lighting myself, but had black boxes before and they were great.

TheHarold · Sep 21, 2018

Pmj said:
They are fooling people into thinking it's more powerful than it actually is, because lots of customers still think wattage is the most important thing.

The PAR output on the black boxes is pretty good in general and awesome in terms of par/cost. A radion is not "2-3x" the par of a blackbox.

It is absolutely good par for the cost. I am agreeing with you in that they are trying to fool customers into thinking that a fixture is more powerful than it is. Now you can say that wattage is not important, due to “improvements in led efficiency”, but you forget that these $80 fixtures are not using the newest and greatest in LEDs. The gap in the quality of LEDs even furthers the divide in output.

Have a par map? I posted one linked last past, tho that was also an older gen radion.

I am a not a critic of cheap led fixtures. I have used many with good success. I am a critic of false/misleading advertising. The title is not “avoid inexpensive fixtures”. It is about intentionally misleading output. Don’t advertise a wattage that’s your fixture is not capable of.

oreo54 · Sep 21, 2018

Agreed about the fooling..but the damage is minimal
Say you have a black box w/ 55 diodes @ 1.75W each
96.25W...@ 70L/ w 6738 Lumens
cost $70
$0.01/ lumen

Radion XR 15 @ 90W w/ a lumen efficiency of 100
9000 lumens
cost $350
0.04 / lumen
(all estimates btw: Real PAR measurements for all have been done)
Who's cheating more?

heck people still think a Kessil is "stronger" than a black box..or their "watts" are special..

BORDERLINE fake information is Kessils can't be measured w/ a PAR meter..

Granted there is a lot more into it and NOT trying to undermine your feelings because I do agree.
See we all have personal rants..

You certainly aren't going to get the Chinese to globally change their tune..

I spell the "fake watt" thing out to whomever wants to listen..

Oh and there is no such thing really as a 3W LED.. it's voltage dependent.
more a 3W class. Sure some of the top tier manuf. don't run their X Watt LED's at X watts.

alton · Sep 21, 2018

Not sure I want to get into this but oh well I am bored;

I will use BML as an example: When they first came out I purchased two 14 K 6’ LED strips. They used somewhere around 100 watts. Then they came out with the XB series, they used the same watts but where 25% on average brighter with 25% more PAR. They used better Diodes therefore getting more light for the watt. So yes a better quality led will produce more for less. I do however like how my 165 watt Mars Aqua fixtures are actually 103w but they spell that out in their advertising as true watts. But hey for $250 with three fixtures I light up a 180 gallon softy tank that I paid $100 for and built the stand for another $50.

TheHarold · Sep 21, 2018

Like if you dont think this is accurate/useful, I can get it deleted. The intent was not to devalue fixtures, just to "clarify" what their output is, when given a misleading number.

Pmj · Sep 21, 2018

TheHarold said:
It is absolutely good par for the cost. I am agreeing with you in that they are trying to fool customers into thinking that a fixture is more powerful than it is. Now you can say that wattage is not important, due to “improvements in led efficiency”, but you forget that these $80 fixtures are not using the newest and greatest in LEDs. The gap in the quality of LEDs even furthers the divide in output.

Have a par map? I posted one linked last past, tho that was also an older gen radion.

I am a not a critic of cheap led fixtures. I have used many with good success. I am a critic of false/misleading advertising. The title is not “avoid inexpensive fixtures”. It is about intentionally misleading output. Don’t advertise a wattage that’s your fixture is not capable of.

By "improvements in LED efficiency", I meant that now, even the cheapest crap LEDs are actually pretty decent for our purposes. It's kind of like computer processors hitting the limit of how fast they could go, so they improved in different ways as opposed to just MHz/GHz. Corals only need a certain range of PAR, and that's not changing any time soon, so we don't only look at pure power for comparison.

Sorry, don't take it the wrong way, they do advertise wattage incorrectly, just felt you came off super negative of black boxes and I feel like they're a great option for a lot of people with a budget.

savoyard · Sep 21, 2018

I tested my 108w bar and it looks like it's using 44w. I'm surprised, because it's super bright.

TheHarold · Sep 21, 2018

savoyard said:
I tested my 108w bar and it looks like it's using 44w. I'm surprised, because it's super bright.

Right- and it’s bright and probably good for what you want it for. But it is not 108 Watts of leds, it is not 1/2 radion output, it is not the output of a ocean revive black box. I wish they made the heatsink larger instead of cutting performance for cost and to be aesthetically prettier.

And wow- 44w seems very low.

Nick30G · Sep 21, 2018

Really the only thing that matters in lights is the correct spectrum/wavelengths. I love Ocean Revive T247 its such a nice light for the price and grows my corals really well. Most LED's are pretty intense.

TexasTodd · Sep 21, 2018

I agree, they shouldn't advertise them at 108 if they draw less. 44w surprises me, what did you test it with? The only report I've seen is an Apex at 70w. I own TWO of these bars. They are really nice and seem to have very high quality output....according to my coral

.
I took the first one into a local shop that LOVE Radions. Hey, I do too, but they're really expensive. I don't know what program they're running, but they have G4 pro 15's and 30's. I think six or eight 30's over their largest display. I got the bar company's blue standard, but had them replace about 25% of the most dominant color with their 12k, probably runs about what halide 18k looks like. I brought this into the local shop to show them. When I plugged it in and put it over the tanks, they literally said "holy crap, that thing just drowned out the Radions". Now, that is just visual and spectrum plays in. I need to get off my butt and get our clubs PAR meter from Alton, which I'll likely do in the next couple of weeks. PAR meter readings and LED is a whole other debate, but probably not bad comparing LED to LED with similar K, but I really don't know on that. I do know, from what I've seen, Halide/T5/VHO PAR does not equal LED PAR at the same PAR meter readings.

Flippers4pups · Sep 21, 2018

fredk said:
Buyer beware. I'm just trying to sort through who uses what LEDs and what that means before buying lights for my tank. When things are cheaper, there is always a reason.

I run those cheap CBB’s and couldn’t be happier.

Folks, what works for me, my personal preference, may not be what you want or like.

That’s why its called a personal preference.

With that said, there are plenty of hobbyist that use them and are perfectly happy with them. Any other discussion about someone’s personal preference, regardless if it’s lights, pumps.... etc is completely moot.

There is no doubt that these CBB’s can grow colorful, healthy colorful coral. Case in point:

Enough said.

Happy Reefing!

Brew12 · Sep 21, 2018

Flippers4pups said:
I run those cheap CBB’s and couldn’t be happier.

Folks, what works for me, my personal preference, may not be what you want or like.

That’s why its called a personal preference.

With that said, there are plenty of hobbyist that use them and are perfectly happy with them. Any other discussion about someone’s personal preference, regardless if it’s lights, pumps.... etc is completely moot.

There is no doubt that these CBB’s can grow colorful, healthy colorful coral. Case in point:

Enough said.

Happy Reefing!

Umm.... get back to me when you can.. umm.. ah crud. Nevermind.

oreo54 · Sep 21, 2018

Halide/T5/VHO PAR does not equal LED PAR at the same PAR meter readings.

Physical impossibility except for the itty bits of UV/IR...which by def. are not "PAR"
good PAR meters record all the spectrum from 400-700nm equally (for the most part).
I''ll leave MH's out got bit since they have massive amount of "Non-PAR" IR ..
sorry a bit on the nit picky side..

TexasTodd · Sep 21, 2018

Hey Oreo, I'm quite sure you know a lot more about it than I do. I also know I have a Squamosa thriving at 60 PAR

LED.

oreo54 · Sep 21, 2018

I don't think I know a lot more than you, but physics is physics.. not "my" rules...
This is an issue:

LED obviously..

TexasTodd · Sep 21, 2018

Ha, all good Oreo, I truly do think you know more! That wasn't a dig.

All I know is I'm seeing things grow and or burn at much lower PAR than with Halide and T5. I'd say just quality except the part where things are also growing well, and with color, at much lower PAR. I don't know the physics of it, but there's something "there".

Sorry for the sidetrack, I'll try to get some PAR readings on these bars as no one had posted those yet that I've seen. I can at least compare % on my Reef Breeder. I'd take into the local shop for Radion but it's a PITA to remove from my canopy.

Again, agree they shouldn't say it's higher watt than it is, but if others are doing this marketing it gets tricky. In the end I care about coral growth and color per $ of lights.

savoyard · Sep 21, 2018

TexasTodd said:
I agree, they shouldn't advertise them at 108 if they draw less. 44w surprises me, what did you test it with? The only report I've seen is an Apex at 70w. I own TWO of these bars. They are really nice and seem to have very high quality output....according to my coral .
I took the first one into a local shop that LOVE Radions. Hey, I do too, but they're really expensive. I don't know what program they're running, but they have G4 pro 15's and 30's. I think six or eight 30's over their largest display. I got the bar company's blue standard, but had them replace about 25% of the most dominant color with their 12k, probably runs about what halide 18k looks like. I brought this into the local shop to show them. When I plugged it in and put it over the tanks, they literally said "holy crap, that thing just drowned out the Radions". Now, that is just visual and spectrum plays in. I need to get off my butt and get our clubs PAR meter from Alton, which I'll likely do in the next couple of weeks. PAR meter readings and LED is a whole other debate, but probably not bad comparing LED to LED with similar K, but I really don't know on that. I do know, from what I've seen, Halide/T5/VHO PAR does not equal LED PAR at the same PAR meter readings.

I used the killwatt meter, but maybe I'm doing something wrong. It does seem low when I see how much light I get out of them. I tested other appliances in my house to make sure killwatt was working and it appears to be ok.

fredk · Sep 22, 2018

Flippers4pups said:
I run those cheap CBB’s and couldn’t be happier.

...

Yeah, my post was not very articulate. Perhaps buyer be aware is a better phrase. There are trade offs as you move down the price scale. The one mentioned in the first post is worthy of a buyer beware warning as the marketing is misleading.

Thanks for posting that video, I've seen it before, but had forgotten about it. He does swap his diodes every two years, probably overkill, but that probably eliminates the issue of failed diodes.

As you move down in price point you are giving something up, be it features, efficiency, or quality. I'm just saying that people should be aware of what it is they are giving up.

You are right that all those lights will work just fine.