Ca and Alk in the same supplement? How does this work?

[The Opinionated Reefer]

You can buy it in bulk. Look for the recipe on bulk reef supply or on this forum: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-all-for-reef-recipe-from-tropic-marin-thanks-zack.659055/

Yeah I meant buy the calcium formate in larger quantities than 1400g. Surly you could buy calcium formate powder from some chemical wholesalers much cheaper.

 

[NHgoalstop]

You can buy it in bulk. Look for the recipe on bulk reef supply or on this forum: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-all-for-reef-recipe-from-tropic-marin-thanks-zack.659055/

I was recommended this stuff a couple weeks ago and have been happy with it and I was very happy when someone posted the recipe so I can make it for a third the price.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I am surprised no other companies offer calcium formate. It's such a good and simple way of dosing I don't see why it doesn't make two part obsolete. I would buy this stuff in bulk of I could.

I expect expense is a driver. Others sell calcium acetate, which acts similarly but never seemed to take off in terms of popularity.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I have been thinking that it would probably work out much cheaper to just use carbocalcium as is without adding in the trace elements. And just buy a tub of pro-coral mineral and add the recommend amount each week. This would cover you for all trace elements would last ages.

 

[biom]

FWIW, it is this comment from their web site:

http://www.tropic-marin.com/minerals/carbocalcium/?lang=en

" there is no excess CO2"

That, if they use the term correctly, precludes the counterion from being acetate or anything larger due to CO2 produced:

CH3CO2– (acetate) + 2 O2 → HCO3– + CO2 + H2O

but it could be formate and I can't think of anything else it could be:

HCO2– (formate) + 1/2 O2 → HCO3–

Well if they say " there is no excess CO2" it is not really correct. Your equation is of course correct Randy but :

HCO2– (formate) + 1/2 O2 → HCO3–

but if you put into the equation whole molecule of calcium formate then it is like this:

Ca(HCO2)2 + O2 → CaCO3 + H2O + CO2

actually from biochemical point of view the equation is (one of the possible pathways):

(formate) HCO2– + NAD+ → NADH + CO2

,the process is catalyzed by enzymes (formate dehydrogenases) and is widely used by bacteria, for many anaerobic processes etc. nitrate respiration (denitrification). That is why calcium formate is used as food additive in cow farms not only for calcium supplementation but also as energy source for the bacterial anaerobic processes in cow's digestion system.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

@Hans-Werner Can you explain a bit more about the maximum dosage of this product? I am fast approaching the maximum dose for a tank of my size and it is not overly stocked with high demand corals. I have started another thread here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/carbocalcium-long-term-viability-concerns.737969/#post-7696954

No matter how much carbocalcium i add it never seems to be able to keep up with demand. Currently have a 350L tank and I am up to 75ml per day. The maximum stated dose is 87.5ml per day. Yet I feel when my tank is a fully grown out sps dominated tank it will require two or three times the stated maximum dose.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Well if they say " there is no excess CO2" it is not really correct. Your equation is of course correct Randy but :



but if you put into the equation whole molecule of calcium formate then it is like this:

Ca(HCO2)2 + O2 → CaCO3 + H2O + CO2

actually from biochemical point of view the equation is (one of the possible pathways):

(formate) HCO2– + NAD+ → NADH + CO2

,the process is catalyzed by enzymes (formate dehydrogenases) and is widely used by bacteria, for many anaerobic processes etc. nitrate respiration (denitrification). That is why calcium formate is used as food additive in cow farms not only for calcium supplementation but also as energy source for the bacterial anaerobic processes in cow's digestion system.

I agree. Any time you basically add bicarbonate, you are also adding CO2.

 

[Hans-Werner]

but if you put into the equation whole molecule of calcium formate then it is like this:

Ca(HCO2)2 + O2 → CaCO3 + H2O + CO2

Yes, but you get the same equation except the O2 when you put in calcium and bicarbonate, the "normal" form of dissolved "calcium carbonate" (is lime correct?) in water:

Ca2+ + 2 HCO3- --> CaCO3 + H2O + CO2

If you compare both kinds of calcium carbonate precipitation there is no excess CO2.

There is no way of precipitating CaCO3 without CO2. That is where the zooxanthelle step in.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Can you explain a bit more about the maximum dosage of this product?

The maximum recommended dosage is calculated from the O2 consumption with other kinds of organic carbon dosing like ethanol. From vodka dosing we know that organic carbon dosing is limited by O2 consumption and bacterial growth (blooms).

However, ethanol and formate are quite different as bacterial food. The number of bacteria metabolizing formate and the energy and growth yield from formate seems quite limited. This seems to make formate much less problematic.

Ethanol usually is dosed to tanks with lots of fish and other heterotrophs while high dosages of Carbo-Calcium or All-For-Reef are dosed to reef tanks with lots of autotrophs or semi-autotrophic corals. Autotrophic coralline algae and zooxanthellate corals compensate for at least most of the O2 consumption by bacterial formate metabolism with O2 production in the light. This makes it quite unlikely that moderately exceeding the maximum recommended dosage will cause any problems if most Carbo-Calcium is dosed in the morning.

So far no problems with bacterial blooms or O2 deficiency have been reported to us, although we have stated to several users upon request, that exceeding the maximum recommended dosage will most likely not cause any problems.

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

The maximum recommended dosage is calculated from the O2 consumption with other kinds of organic carbon dosing like ethanol. From vodka dosing we know that organic carbon dosing is limited by O2 consumption and bacterial growth (blooms).

However, ethanol and formate are quite different as bacterial food. The number of bacteria metabolizing formate and the energy and growth yield from formate seems quite limited. This seems to make formate much less problematic.

Ethanol usually is dosed to tanks with lots of fish and other heterotrophs while high dosages of Carbo-Calcium or All-For-Reef are dosed to reef tanks with lots of autotrophs or semi-autotrophic corals. Autotrophic coralline algae and zooxanthellate corals compensate for at least most of the O2 consumption by bacterial formate metabolism with O2 production in the light. This makes it quite unlikely that moderately exceeding the maximum recommended dosage will cause any problems if most Carbo-Calcium is dosed in the morning.

So far no problems with bacterial blooms or O2 deficiency have been reported to us, although we have stated to several users upon request, that exceeding the maximum recommended dosage will most likely not cause any problems.

Thanks for getting back to me but what about using double the maximum dose or beyond? I cant see a packed SPS dominant tank using any less than twice the maximum dose based on my consumption. I may have to move onto a calcium reactor long term I think.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I cant see a packed SPS dominant tank using any less than twice the maximum dose based on my consumption.

The maximum dose of 25 ml per 100 l of a 140 g/l calcium formate solution is 1.1 g (1077 mg) per 100 l or 11 ppm of pure calcium or 2.7 g per 100 l of calcium carbonate.

I am not fully convinced that you have to use twice the maximum dose , but I think nothing bad will happen if you try to go as far as you can. Most likely you may get problems with phosphate limitation with such a high calcification. Be prepared that such problems may appear first, before you get other kinds of problems.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The maximum dose of 25 ml per 100 l of a 140 g/l calcium formate solution is 1.1 g (1077 mg) per 100 l or 11 ppm of pure calcium or 2.7 g per 100 l of calcium carbonate.

I am not fully convinced that you have to use twice the maximum dose , but I think nothing bad will happen if you try to go as far as you can. Most likely you may get problems with phosphate limitation with such a high calcification. Be prepared that such problems may appear first, before you get other kinds of problems.

Surely many tanks will need more than 11 ppm of calcium and 1.5 dKH of alkalinity a day.

I think it would be very useful if the web site or label explained that the max dose is O2 driven, and that how significant that is will depend on how well aerated the tank is.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Thank you for the tip, Randy. I will think about how we can include this information on the label.

 

[User1]

This makes it quite unlikely that moderately exceeding the maximum recommended dosage will cause any problems if most Carbo-Calcium is dosed in the morning.

Maybe unrelated but is there a recommended window to dose the All For Reef product? I take my total dose recommendation and spread it over 24 hours. I know the reply above is talking specifically about Carbo-Calcium but it is one component of AFR so figured I'd ask.

I was originally dosing ESV 2 part again over 24 hours so automatically carried forward the same when switching to AFR. Haven't noticed anything different so maybe it doesn't matter?

 

[SoAg Reefer]

following as i do the same as @saf1

 

[Hans-Werner]

Maybe unrelated but is there a recommended window to dose the All For Reef product?

I only recommended it to users who asked me because they wanted to dose more than the recommended maximum dosage.
For sure it will not be wrong or bad to dose most or all of Carbo-Calcium or All-For-Reef during the "reef day" and only little or nothing at night. Coral calcification mainly takes place in the light.

 

[User1]

I only recommended it to users who asked me because they wanted to dose more than the recommended maximum dosage.
For sure it will not be wrong or bad to dose most or all of Carbo-Calcium or All-For-Reef during the "reef day" and only little or nothing at night. Coral calcification mainly takes place in the light.

Thank you. Have a great day!

 

[User1]

Thank you. Have a great day!

Out of curiosity has anyone sent off an ICP test a month or two after starting TM AFR (I'm using the DIY recipe)? Specifically ATI?

ATI's recommendation noted Bromine is elevated. This is also one of the components and/or trace elements in TM AFR. I did not see this elevated in previous tests so pretty sure it is a direct relationship. The value may not be a big deal but figured I would ask.

 

[Hans-Werner]

ATI's recommendation noted Bromine is elevated. This is also one of the components and/or trace elements in TM AFR. I did not see this elevated in previous tests so pretty sure it is a direct relationship. The value may not be a big deal but figured I would ask.

Thank you for your post and the numbers.
Doing a short calculation might help. The elevation is ca. 32.9 ppm.

The concentration of Br in A- Elements is 173.9 ppm (lower than iodine!). The dilution of A- Elements in All-For-Reef DIY is 1:10 resulting in a concentration of 17.39 ppm Br. To achieve an increase in concentration of 32.9 ppm you would have to dose 1.89 times the water volume of your tank in All-For-Reef DIY without any consumption of Br.

I think we do not have to continue this calculation to see that this is just impossible. Nevertheless, just for fun we can continue this calculation.

When dosing the maximum recommended dosage of 25 ml per 100 l per day (which may be exceeded), you are dosing 25 ml each 100.000 ml per day. To replace the water volume once you need 4,000 days, multiplied with 1.89 times the water volume you get 7560 days or more than 20 years without any consumption, to achieve this elevation in concentration.

I do not know what led to this result of the analysis, but I think the possible error of such kinds of analysis might be strongly underestimated. I think ATI is a very meticulous laboratory. In my opinion each ICP-OES laboratory may have produced errors of similar dimensions after a few years of working. It was noticeable that in forums one week questions about elevated barium in the analyses of a certain ICP-OES laboratory popped up and the next week about a different element in the analyses of another laboratory. Especially certain groups of elements like the earth alkaline metals seem to prone to analytic errors.

 

[User1]

Thank you for your post and the numbers.
Doing a short calculation might help. The elevation is ca. 32.9 ppm.

The concentration of Br in A- Elements is 173.9 ppm (lower than iodine!). The dilution of A- Elements in All-For-Reef DIY is 1:10 resulting in a concentration of 17.39 ppm Br. To achieve an increase in concentration of 32.9 ppm you would have to dose 1.89 times the water volume of your tank in All-For-Reef DIY without any consumption of Br.

I think we do not have to continue this calculation to see that this is just impossible. Nevertheless, just for fun we can continue this calculation.

When dosing the maximum recommended dosage of 25 ml per 100 l per day (which may be exceeded), you are dosing 25 ml each 100.000 ml per day. To replace the water volume once you need 4,000 days, multiplied with 1.89 times the water volume you get 7560 days or more than 20 years without any consumption, to achieve this elevation in concentration.

I do not know what led to this result of the analysis, but I think the possible error of such kinds of analysis might be strongly underestimated. I think ATI is a very meticulous laboratory. In my opinion each ICP-OES laboratory may have produced errors of similar dimensions after a few years of working. It was noticeable that in forums one week questions about elevated barium in the analyses of a certain ICP-OES laboratory popped up and the next week about a different element in the analyses of another laboratory. Especially certain groups of elements like the earth alkaline metals seem to prone to analytic errors.

Thanks. Math is fun

My aquarium is 210 gallons and I estimated the total water volume at 170 gallons. The initial dosage using the calculator is 32 ml per day. I am at 37 ml now. As you said impossible

Thanks again - have a great day!