calcium reactor cant keep up with alk

[jda]

I was looking through my notebook and I need to amend some above statements... dKh from the effluent over 20 is good. I said 25 before, and while this is fine, it might be hard to get there. Between 20 and 30 is a good target.

I got my first CaRx in 1992 when I was 16 and all that we had back then was a notebook, which I still have... my apologies for misremembering.

Corey - tuning to optimum dKh and then raising or lowering that ratio is how you tune all reactors. Drips and bubbles can be variable between brands, but the approach is the same. I do not know if the GEO will trap excess co2, but if you have a good dKh, then you will not have extra.

 

[CoralWealth]

I was looking through my notebook and I need to amend some above statements... dKh from the effluent over 20 is good. I said 25 before, and while this is fine, it might be hard to get there. Between 20 and 30 is a good target.

I got my first CaRx in 1992 when I was 16 and all that we had back then was a notebook, which I still have... my apologies for misremembering.

Corey - tuning to optimum dKh and then raising or lowering that ratio is how you tune all reactors. Drips and bubbles can be variable between brands, but the approach is the same. I do not know if the GEO will trap excess co2, but if you have a good dKh, then you will not have extra.

No problem at all.

Did you happen to count the bubbles and measure the output per minute in mls for your more packed tank and also the dkh?

Also what valve are you using to control the drops on your effluent, mine is inconsistent

 

[biecacka]

Four more, I have low demand in my tank. I have my effluent wide open - I took off my needle valve adjuster and just have open tubing. I haven't tested the effluent coming out of it but I have 1 bubble at about 8-10 seconds. I use my apex to turn my regulator on and off and my numbers are set actually slightly above 7. I think it is 7.1-7.2 which is higher than most but it keeps my dkh in the tank right around 8. But I am always looking for an easier more fail proof method because I know restricting the effluent helps ensure all gas is used etc

Corey

 

[jda]

In the newer tank, it was 51 drips and 14 bubbles. dKh of 19.8 in Salifert low res mode - this could be +/- 10% in low res mode. I will not mess with this, but the next time that I tune, I will probably shoot for over 20. I started to do the large one, but the media was down to about 4 inches (chamber usually has about 22 inches in it) and I need to change it all out... the output was down to about 14 dKh and my tank dKh was about 6.1 (down from 6.6 or 6.7)... normal for the end of life cycle on the media. It was 91-92 bubbles and about 200-210 mls per minute (I am well past drips here) - the last time that I tested this, it was about 22-23 dKh, but I do not have a fresh reading. This 91/210 mls is the one where I need a 50 lb bag of reborn or ARM about every 6 months - I just buy whichever one is cheaper at the time. I will probably change it this weekend and it will take a few days to stabilize - I can post then if you still need it (remind me and I will get on it - with 5 daughters, I need all the reminding that I can get).

In the small tank, it would take about a 7 for the dKh to drop from 6.7 to 6.0. In the larger tank, it would happen in less than a day. It is hard to quantify the differences in carbonate and calcium demand from tank to tank, but that is about the best that I can do. I missed an empty co2 bottle earlier in the year and I went about 2.5 days without co2 and my tank alk was in the mid 4s. Who knows how much buffering went on to arrest that fall, but there was probably some. Nothing was harmed and I fixed it all up really quick, but this tank can really suck up the alk. Once you get big time, find an extra co2 cylinder in Craigslist and have it on standby - I got a 40 pounder for pretty cheap, but even a 10 or 15 can help if you run out on Friday night and the welding shop is not open until Monday.

I have some notes in my book that input pH really matters... which I had forgotten about, but it makes prefect sense once I read it. You do not need as much co2 to get 7.9 down to 6.4 and you do 8.3. I remember having to use a bit more bubbles here in Colorado since the air is so good and our house is constantly open and my ph is around 8.3 all the time. I could use less co2 in Missouri since our house was closed up all the time and my pH was from 7.8 to 7.9/8.0. If you use kalk or a co2 scrubber, then plan on more co2.

Corey - I would love to know what your output dKh is... wide open and 6-7 bubbles a minute cannot be melting that much media... but with low demand that might be OK.

I know that I am always typing a lot, but this really is easy. It is like trying to find a tangent or limit theorem... chapters on it in a math book, but once you "get it," then you "get it."

 

[CoralWealth]

In the newer tank, it was 51 drips and 14 bubbles. dKh of 19.8 in Salifert low res mode - this could be +/- 10% in low res mode. I will not mess with this, but the next time that I tune, I will probably shoot for over 20. I started to do the large one, but the media was down to about 4 inches (chamber usually has about 22 inches in it) and I need to change it all out... the output was down to about 14 dKh and my tank dKh was about 6.1 (down from 6.6 or 6.7)... normal for the end of life cycle on the media. It was 91-92 bubbles and about 200-210 mls per minute (I am well past drips here) - the last time that I tested this, it was about 22-23 dKh, but I do not have a fresh reading. This 91/210 mls is the one where I need a 50 lb bag of reborn or ARM about every 6 months - I just buy whichever one is cheaper at the time. I will probably change it this weekend and it will take a few days to stabilize - I can post then if you still need it (remind me and I will get on it - with 5 daughters, I need all the reminding that I can get).

In the small tank, it would take about a 7 for the dKh to drop from 6.7 to 6.0. In the larger tank, it would happen in less than a day. It is hard to quantify the differences in carbonate and calcium demand from tank to tank, but that is about the best that I can do. I missed an empty co2 bottle earlier in the year and I went about 2.5 days without co2 and my tank alk was in the mid 4s. Who knows how much buffering went on to arrest that fall, but there was probably some. Nothing was harmed and I fixed it all up really quick, but this tank can really suck up the alk. Once you get big time, find an extra co2 cylinder in Craigslist and have it on standby - I got a 40 pounder for pretty cheap, but even a 10 or 15 can help if you run out on Friday night and the welding shop is not open until Monday.

I have some notes in my book that input pH really matters... which I had forgotten about, but it makes prefect sense once I read it. You do not need as much co2 to get 7.9 down to 6.4 and you do 8.3. I remember having to use a bit more bubbles here in Colorado since the air is so good and our house is constantly open and my ph is around 8.3 all the time. I could use less co2 in Missouri since our house was closed up all the time and my pH was from 7.8 to 7.9/8.0. If you use kalk or a co2 scrubber, then plan on more co2.

Corey - I would love to know what your output dKh is... wide open and 6-7 bubbles a minute cannot be melting that much media... but with low demand that might be OK.

I know that I am always typing a lot, but this really is easy. It is like trying to find a tangent or limit theorem... chapters on it in a math book, but once you "get it," then you "get it."

That helps a lot, I will be measuring my output when I get home for lunch and also how many mls I am using a minute from the effluent, I am using the side output now and have the top closed. I am at 12 bubbles per minute right now with a broken stream. I still have the ph monitor reading the ph inside the chamber but not doing anything. It was 6.25 this morning when I checked and there was no c02 built up at the top.

I am thinking I will have to open up the stream more and the bubbles for my tank but we will see. do you ever measure the ph inside your chamber JDA? or the ph of the effluent (pretty much the same thing)

 

[jda]

I don't have a ph-anything anymore - they all broke or wore out over the years and I never replaced them. It was always around 6.4 when I did measure it. I don't care about pH, only dKh in the output. The co2 trap is my fall back - which is why I love Korallins and the few others can trap air in the top. I have not measured pH in my tank since we moved to Colorado almost a decade ago.

If you are not trapping co2, then you are not even fully saturated yet and my guess is that you are around 6.4 or 6.5. This is what leads me not to trust the pH probe - 6.25 is not outrageous and will not usually turn media to mush, but also well beyond where you need to be to melt natural media.

It does sound like your chamber pH is lower no matter the actual number, so your dKh should be higher at l. I will bet that you are close to 20 dKh.

I used some man-made stuff once from AquaMedic and it took a pH of about 6.1 to even start to melt that stuff. Plus, it only had carbonate and calcium in it... no mag, strontium and the other stuff that natural media has. I had to add dolomite to it. I will never use that stuff again.

 

[CoralWealth]

I don't have a ph-anything anymore - they all broke or wore out over the years and I never replaced them. It was always around 6.4 when I did measure it. I don't care about pH, only dKh in the output. The co2 trap is my fall back - which is why I love Korallins and the few others can trap air in the top. I have not measured pH in my tank since we moved to Colorado almost a decade ago.

If you are not trapping co2, then you are not even fully saturated yet and my guess is that you are around 6.4 or 6.5. This is what leads me not to trust the pH probe - 6.25 is not outrageous and will not usually turn media to mush, but also well beyond where you need to be to melt natural media.

It does sound like your chamber pH is lower no matter the actual number, so your dKh should be higher at l. I will bet that you are close to 20 dKh.

I used some man-made stuff once from AquaMedic and it took a pH of about 6.1 to even start to melt that stuff. Plus, it only had carbonate and calcium in it... no mag, strontium and the other stuff that natural media has. I had to add dolomite to it. I will never use that stuff again.

Makes sense. I thought I would get the ph calibration packets today but unfortunately looks like I wont get them till tomorrow. Which isnt a big deal as I am not going by the PH but I would like to get it 100% corrected if it is not now.

 

[jda]

Edit: oh okay I see what you are saying. You are saying to use a constant 10 bubbles per minute and dont use the PH monitor at all. so to just plug the carbon doser into a regular outlet and let it run 24/7 at 10 bubbles per minute.

Why would that be any different then having the ph inside the chamber at 6.4 using the ph monitor and having it shut off obviously when it goes lower and turn on when it goes higher(assuming it is at that, I will confirm tomorrow)

I missed this edit, sorry. Using a pH regulator can work, but the pH will fluctuate and you end up "dumping" in co2 when it is "on." It works like this... your monitor sees a pH of 6.5 and turns the solenoid on - you cannot just have 10 bubbles per minute here since the "constant rate" is not enough to catch up and you need probably more like 40 bubbles per minute since you are going to be switching it off soon. This causes the pH to drop quite a bit to say 6.3, then the regulator shuts off. The "dump" can build up c02 in the top (korallin) and/or send the excess c02 down the line (most others) from the dump that cannot get dissolved in time.

You have to set the bubbles way above where they normally need to be since they have to "dump" to "catch up" once the solenoid is on.

When you use a regulator, you need to really up the throughput since dumping can cause issues with fast drops and not dissolving with slow throughput. This can work, but it is not efficient and can lower your tank pH since undissolved co2 can get in there. Your bottle will not last as long. The output will fluxuate with small swings of pH and be harder to set. You can also turn media to mush once you start to "dump" a lot. This is more of the hand-grenade or battleship (the board game) approach. Using optimum flow and bubbles is like using a guided missile - steady and accurate. If people just don't want to figure it out, then the controller can work, but this is usually seen as less than ideal by the people whose minds can handle the thought.

...and none of this addresses that a pH probe is not reliable. For the price point, they are ok tools, but even the "lab grade" probes would never be relied upon by a real lab. A reliable pH system would be well over $1000 and have three probes for a two-out-of-three reading. It only takes one or two probe failures and chasing your tail to figure out what happened to abandon them and learn to tune by hand. Once the probe starts to drift, then you can start to make your corals made with many days with alk in the 4s or 5s or also in the 9s or 10s - if you are good at your craft, you can see this once it starts to happen, but you still will not be happy that it happened.

When you add up the inefficiencies and inconsistency of cycled dumping with the unreliability of the hobby grade probe, this is why people choose to not use a pH controller. ...and, some of them are probably just cheap.

 

[biecacka]

Excuse my dirty sump. Below is a picture and I put the needle valve back in for picture purposes, I did not change the output and I guess "wide open" was a bit extreme. (It won't let me attach a video)
My dkh coming out is 10.4, so extremely low. I have daily water changes in my tank and I'm sure that helps apply my low demand. I only have about 15-17 pieces in my 240 but my coraline grows at a crazy piece. Lately though, everything has been growing very slowly and mostly encrusts at the base as opposed to upward growth

 

[CoralWealth]

just tested the dkh out of the effulent and it is around 25 which obviously is great and this is at around 120ml per minute. the ph inside the chamber is still saying 6.25 and there is no c02 build up at the top.

 

[CoralWealth]

okay there is now actually a little bit of c02 built up at the time but it is still working good. any suggestions?

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Jda I have to commend you for helping and writing so much to help in this topic. And I know a lot of people who don't like this method but it's solid, I don't like using pH controllers anymore either.
You should try the wave puck pumps, they won't have any grills facing the light so algae and Coraline never become an issue. They do need to make a bigger version but I am afraid the one bad review from that one website screwed the company pretty good even though it's a great product.

 

[jda]

Cody - see if the top continues to fill up with air. I would observe for a few days. If it does, then check all of the lines for leaks and make sure that there are no bubbles near your feed pump that cold be getting pumped in - I had my feed pump too close to my skimmer output once and it always filled the thing up with air. If this trend continues, then lower the bubbles by just 1 per minute and check again - this might take your dKh to 23, but who cares... that is still plenty.

Once you get this sorted out, then let us know what your ratio is - it might help another person even though bubbles and drips are not uniform in size and input tank pH can vary. At least output mls are uniform.

I am interested to see if this keeps your tank stable. Don't pay too much attention to a test kit within .2 or .3... these could be the same reading, but once you get to .4-.5 with a few tests, then I tend to think that this is real.

I feel that people do not like this method because they don't understand it. They don't even understand that they don't understand it. They watched some YouTube video with a guy spitting on tuning reactors and telling you to throw away the sheet that comes in the packaging and just use a pH controller, but he just set his up and has not yet dealt with dumping or bad pH probes. Many people who do this have inconsistent results and have abandoned it, or are not even in the hobby anymore. I had to stop posting so much detail about the difference in light because people seem like they just cannot understand what I am writing, or I am doing a bad job of explaining it - I get tired of the nasty PMs that I get. I hope that people can understand this.

Pedro - don't even get me started on the WavePuck. I am sure that it is a good product, or at least decent... Waveline just does not advertise with Reefbuilders. If it would have been an EcoTech product, then it would have gotten 10 stars out of 5 and gotten a few infomercial type videos made about it and they would have excused away any sharp edges or failure to start as being "new to market and not yet battle tested." Reefbuilders is an advertising vehicle, not a place to get honest reviews or learn something... they are a shill for their advertisers, nothing more. Wait, I can feel about 5-10 more bad PMs coming now for saying this. Sorry for the tangent.

 

[CoralWealth]

Cody - see if the top continues to fill up with air. I would observe for a few days. If it does, then check all of the lines for leaks and make sure that there are no bubbles near your feed pump that cold be getting pumped in - I had my feed pump too close to my skimmer output once and it always filled the thing up with air. If this trend continues, then lower the bubbles by just 1 per minute and check again - this might take your dKh to 23, but who cares... that is still plenty.

Once you get this sorted out, then let us know what your ratio is - it might help another person even though bubbles and drips are not uniform in size and input tank pH can vary. At least output mls are uniform.

I am interested to see if this keeps your tank stable. Don't pay too much attention to a test kit within .2 or .3... these could be the same reading, but once you get to .4-.5 with a few tests, then I tend to think that this is real.

I feel that people do not like this method because they don't understand it. They don't even understand that they don't understand it. They watched some YouTube video with a guy spitting on tuning reactors and telling you to throw away the sheet that comes in the packaging and just use a pH controller, but he just set his up and has not yet dealt with dumping or bad pH probes. Many people who do this have inconsistent results and have abandoned it, or are not even in the hobby anymore. I had to stop posting so much detail about the difference in light because people seem like they just cannot understand what I am writing, or I am doing a bad job of explaining it - I get tired of the nasty PMs that I get. I hope that people can understand this.

Pedro - don't even get me started on the WavePuck. I am sure that it is a good product, or at least decent... Waveline just does not advertise with Reefbuilders. If it would have been an EcoTech product, then it would have gotten 10 stars out of 5 and gotten a few infomercial type videos made about it and they would have excused away any sharp edges or failure to start as being "new to market and not yet battle tested." Reefbuilders is an advertising vehicle, not a place to get honest reviews or learn something... they are a shill for their advertisers, nothing more. Wait, I can feel about 5-10 more bad PMs coming now for saying this. Sorry for the tangent.

I will and I really really appreciate your help and obviously all the time you took helping me and writing all of these posts. I will see if the air line changed at all when I get home from work but I was really happy to see the stream staying the same and the dkh being above 20. I hope it is the same when I get home and hopefully the c02 bubble at the top went away. I will find out in a couple hours.

I will let you know the ratio between mls in the output per minute and the bubbles once I get no c02 trapped

 

[jda]

It is OK if a little bit of air is caught up top - you can never get it all out. It is when it increases day after day that you will eventually have issues.

 

[CoralWealth]

It is OK if a little bit of air is caught up top - you can never get it all out. It is when it increases day after day that you will eventually have issues.

Okay I will keep an eye on it and see if anything changes over the next couple days. What do you use to control the output? Mine is inconsistent

 

[jda]

I use a MaxiJet or a Quiet One 200 with airline/intake tube in the end and then I fill the rest of the space up with 2-part putty. This gets put in the final chamber of my sump. A flow control pinch on the end of one and I just use the ball valve that came with the Korallin on the other one.

Used these the last a few years. I just buy half a dozen of them and keep them on the shelf. I use them to run GAC in a phosban reactor sometimes too. They are pretty handy for $12.
https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/q...MI1oaWw7ai3gIVFtVkCh2zrwF8EAQYAyABEgKCBvD_BwE

I am not saying that this NEVER clogs, but I can go months and months with it running correctly. As long as the media is not too small from melting, then mine stays pretty consistent... once it starts to clog, then that is a sign that I need new media. Clogging used to be more of an issue when ARM only came in the small size and it would get really small when you started to melt it. Some people use filters for their intake pumps to keep the debris out. I do not.

I used to use a Kangaroo 324 (same thing as modern day Masterflex - continuous duty medical peri pump), but it needs new tubing and I never have gotten around to changing it - I liked it, just have not gotten the new parts yet. Kangaroo 324 are less than $100 used, but they do need a slight modification with a soldering iron and you need to find an older model. They are long out of fashion, but I know a few old-timers that have been using theirs for decades.

I also have used a T off the main return line. This worked OK for me too:
https://www.amazon.com/Aqua-Medic-Reducing-Tee-Airline/dp/B001EU5NEI

I tried a manifold once and I hated it... too inconsistent for me.

 

[CoralWealth]

I use a MaxiJet or a Quiet One 200 with airline/intake tube in the end and then I fill the rest of the space up with 2-part putty. This gets put in the final chamber of my sump. A flow control pinch on the end of one and I just use the ball valve that came with the Korallin on the other one.

Used these the last a few years. I just buy half a dozen of them and keep them on the shelf. I use them to run GAC in a phosban reactor sometimes too. They are pretty handy for $12.
https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/q...MI1oaWw7ai3gIVFtVkCh2zrwF8EAQYAyABEgKCBvD_BwE

I am not saying that this NEVER clogs, but I can go months and months with it running correctly. As long as the media is not too small from melting, then mine stays pretty consistent... once it starts to clog, then that is a sign that I need new media. Clogging used to be more of an issue when ARM only came in the small size and it would get really small when you started to melt it. Some people use filters for their intake pumps to keep the debris out. I do not.

I used to use a Kangaroo 324 (same thing as modern day Masterflex - continuous duty medical peri pump), but it needs new tubing and I never have gotten around to changing it - I liked it, just have not gotten the new parts yet. Kangaroo 324 are less than $100 used, but they do need a slight modification with a soldering iron and you need to find an older model. They are long out of fashion, but I know a few old-timers that have been using theirs for decades.

I also have used a T off the main return line. This worked OK for me too:
https://www.amazon.com/Aqua-Medic-Reducing-Tee-Airline/dp/B001EU5NEI

I tried a manifold once and I hated it... too inconsistent for me.

Thank you!

 

[Breadman03]

@jda, is there any special tubing or hardware needed for the Kangaroo? It looks like there is some type of hardware needed to secure the tubing.

 

[jda]

You need the medical grade tubing if you want it to last with the continuous duty. The Kangaroo is made to just take regular tubing, but you are supposed to throw it away after the medical bag was empty - regular tubing is not made to constantly get smashed like this.. I cannot remember if santoprene is the stuff that you want, but I just used to take it into the medical supply place and they would know. People still use them, so you should be able to get tubing. If you do go this route, buy enough tubing for several more replacements - I did not and it was a mistake.

I don't know if you dug in far enough, but you need to solder a few wires and modify a Kangaroo to run constantly without it beeping and getting mad. It is not hard. This is all that we had back then, so we just did it. They are not ready to go.

If you have the ability, then this can be as good as a Masterflex with a bit of work and a fraction of the price. It has been a decade or more since I messed with finding and soldering one of these, so do your homework.

I think that more people would do this if they knew about Kangaroos. If you decide to do this, make a thread for others.