Can a DT really be disease-free?

[Crashjack]

I always prophylactically treat quarantined fish with copper for 4 weeks. 2 weeks is too short of a time. Then they get a round of Prazipro before they have a chance at getting in my DT.

Wouldn't it be best to always do copper last, then immediately release fish into the DT or at least a new, sterilized QT? If: 1) 30 days is typically long enough to outlast the Trophont Stage (parasites on fish stage 1), 2) The Trophont - Tomont Stages (stages 1-3) can last a total of 72 days or more, 3) the Theront Stage (free-swimming stage 4) is the only time the parasites can be killed, and 4) The theronts in stage 4 are always killed by copper before they can attach to fish and become trophonts-- one would have to remove fish from the QT while being protected from theronts to ensure they aren't infected. In other words, fish would have to be removed while copper is at therapeutic levels. Otherwise, any living protomonts and/or tomonts could become theronts during the time copper is not present, presenting opportunity for the parasites to infect the fish in the QT.

I'm not knocking your procedure. I'm just trying to follow the logic behind the quarantine process in general.

 

[Areseebee]

Airborne? Really?
That seems like you would have to avoid any place that is reef related.
I saw a video on Reef Builders where a guy in Australia does a 90% water change with water from ocean. His tank was phenomenal.
What am I missing???

Same reason sterile technique requires working under an open flame or in a hood.

 

[Brew12]

When I say "sterile", I use the term loosely to describe the elimination of parasites and infectious bacteria that might attack livestock. Living hundreds of miles from the nearest ocean, I doubt infectious bacteria that might attack fish or corals could be introduced except with already infected livestock, but I could be wrong. Obviously, a truly sterile tank would have no bacteria and would result in ammonia poisoning of livestock.

I actually disagree with your thought on infectious bacteria. If you take a new tank, set it up with dry rock, dry sand and add pure ammonia as a food source, it will cycle. Eventually it will grow algae even with nothing else added. You will also get diatoms and cyanobacteria. We have little control over what will enter our tanks from a bacterial standpoint.

I do think we can eliminate most parasites though, so that is what I believe hobbyists should focus on. We eliminate parasites through QT and treatment, we reduce the likelyhood of problematic bacteria via nutrition and stress reduction. We treat with antibiotics when necessary.

 

[JamesP]

Airborne? Really?
That seems like you would have to avoid any place that is reef related.
I saw a video on Reef Builders where a guy in Australia does a 90% water change with water from ocean. His tank was phenomenal.
What am I missing???

In the ocean, the ich and other bad stuff has so much more space to be spread out that the levels of these parasites is super diluted. In our tanks, they are super concentrated. Ocean water is not sterile with respect to disease and parasites, but is diluted infinitely small compared to a tank.

 

[Brew12]

Wouldn't it be best to always do copper last, then immediately release fish into the DT or at least a new, sterilized QT? If: 1) 30 days is typically long enough to outlast the Trophont Stage (parasites on fish stage 1), 2) The Trophont - Tomont Stages (stages 1-3) can last a total of 72 days or more, 3) the Theront Stage (free-swimming stage 4) is the only time the parasites can be killed, and 4) The theronts in stage 4 are always killed by copper before they can attach to fish and become trophonts-- one would have to remove fish from the QT while being protected from theronts to ensure they aren't infected. In other words, fish would have to be removed while copper is at therapeutic levels. Otherwise, any living protomonts and/or tomonts could become theronts during the time copper is not present, presenting opportunity for the parasites to infect the fish in the QT.

I'm not knocking your procedure. I'm just trying to follow the logic behind the quarantine process in general.

I believe that it is best to transfer the fish into a new QT after copper treatment but it isn't required. I do not recommend putting a fish from a copper treated QT directly into a stocked DT. I feel it is best for the fish to spend an extra week or two in a lower stress, clean water environment prior to having to compete with his tankmates in a DT.

It isn't completely accurate to say that only the theront stage can be killed by copper. With 30 days of therapeutic exposure to copper it will prevent the tomonts from hatching. This process just doesn't happen as quickly and hasn't been as well studied.

 

[Paul B]

Airborne? Really?

;Facepalm

 

[Humblefish]

Airborne? Really?
That seems like you would have to avoid any place that is reef related.
I saw a video on Reef Builders where a guy in Australia does a 90% water change with water from ocean. His tank was phenomenal.
What am I missing???

More detailed info: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/aerosol-transmission.190292/

 

[Empress]

76 days will work 99% of the time, not sure what 100% would be.

Your fish need to be in cupramine at .45 IMO for 30 full days without it ever swinging lower, when I used cupramine I did .5 but I was paranoid. After that you can observe for a couple weeks.

You ever notice how much paranoia there is in this hobby? Next thing we'll be paranoid about is if our fish are talking about us behind our backs. [emoji23]

 

[Brew12]

You ever notice how much paranoia there is in this hobby? Next thing we'll be paranoid about is if our fish are talking about us behind our backs. [emoji23]

Just because we are paranoid doesn't mean the fish aren't actually plotting against us when we can't watch. ;Nailbiting

 

[Empress]

Yeah, they're definitely up to no good. Watch out for the scorpion fish, the lionfish, the triggers and especially the surgeonfishes! You watch my back and I'll watch yours. [emoji889][emoji881][emoji379][emoji380]

 

[Humblefish]

Just because we are paranoid doesn't mean the fish aren't actually plotting against us when we can't watch. ;Nailbiting

Eat some salmon in front of them sometime, just to show your fish who's still boss. ;Smuggrin

 

[Paul B]

You ever notice how much paranoia there is in this hobby? Next thing we'll be paranoid about is if our fish are talking about us behind our backs. [emoji23]

You mean there Not!

Do you guys really do all of this? I would have to blow my brains out ;Drool
My fish get water and that's about it, and if they give me a hard time, they sleep in sawdust. They don't even know what all this stuff is. If my head could spin around, it would have made three and a half revolutions already.

 

[Brew12]

Do you guys really do all of this?

No, I don't do all this. I eat tilapia in front of my fish since I don't much care for salmon. Unless it has béarnaise sauce on it.

 

[leepink23]

Does it get moved more than 10 feet away after mixing is complete? If so, any ich theronts should die within 48 hrs - however, velvet dinospores can last up to 15 days.

It does get moved more than 10 feet, I actually only make the rodi water there and mix in a different spot. But sounds like to be safe I need to find another spot for the quarantine.

 

[Crashjack]

I believe that it is best to transfer the fish into a new QT after copper treatment but it isn't required. I do not recommend putting a fish from a copper treated QT directly into a stocked DT. I feel it is best for the fish to spend an extra week or two in a lower stress, clean water environment prior to having to compete with his tankmates in a DT.

It isn't completely accurate to say that only the theront stage can be killed by copper. With 30 days of therapeutic exposure to copper it will prevent the tomonts from hatching. This process just doesn't happen as quickly and hasn't been as well studied.

No doubt that if a fish isn't eating well some time in a non-medicated QT tank is a good idea. I guess what you do at the end of copper treatment really depends on the theory you subscribe to... if you don't trust copper to eliminate the risk of tomonts hatching, you would move the fish straight to DT or a sterilized QT, and if you subscribe to the theory that 30 days of copper keeps tomonts from hatching, you would remove the copper and let the fish stay put.

 

[Brew12]

No doubt that if a fish isn't eating well some time in a non-medicated QT tank is a good idea. I guess what you do at the end of copper treatment really depends on the theory you subscribe to... if you don't trust copper to eliminate the risk of tomonts hatching, you would move the fish straight to DT or a sterilized QT, and if you subscribe to the theory that 30 days of copper keeps tomonts from hatching, you would remove the copper and let the fish stay put.

I think the tank inhabitants also play a role. If you have a very peaceful tank I would have little issue with transferring a fish into the DT after 14 days in copper. If you have tangs, angels, damsels or clowns (yes, I know they are damsels too) then I prefer a place to let them recover after the copper before making them compete for food and space.

 

[JamesP]

So does 30 days in copper do the trick or not? I thought it was generally accepted that 4 weeks was enough. I did 6 recently because im paranoid.

 

[JamesP]

So does 30 days in copper do the trick or not? I thought it was generally accepted that 4 weeks was enough. I did 6 recently because im paranoid.

 

[4FordFamily]

You ever notice how much paranoia there is in this hobby? Next thing we'll be paranoid about is if our fish are talking about us behind our backs. [emoji23]

My fish are talking... they fear I'll go on vacation...

Too soon!?

 

[4FordFamily]

So does 30 days in copper do the trick or not? I thought it was generally accepted that 4 weeks was enough. I did 6 recently because im paranoid.

If levels were therapeutic for a full 30 days you should be fine. I too have done 6 weeks before however when I didn't test daily as I should.