Can't decide a treatment

[fernalfer]

Ok here is my situation. I have a new 120 that has been fishless and cycled for 1 month and a half ready to go. I have decided that this time around i'm going to do things right and QT all fish. I bought my first fish a Lemon Peel tang, probably not the best first fish to put in tank but he looked healthy, great color, and ate like a pig at the LFS.

He has been in a 20 gallon for 4 weeks now. First week or so i observed and let him settle in. Then i did 2 rounds of prazipro. 1st round dosed left for 6 days and did a 25% WC. Then dosed a second Round and just left it in there. He has showed no signs of anything until yesterday i noticed him every once in awhile getting almost completely sideways and rubbing up against the PVC pipe in the tank. And doing a slight twitch every now and then. This only lasted for about a half an hour. This morning i watched him for about a half hour while feeding and he didn't display any twitching or scratching.

With that said i have Cupramine ready to go with the Seachem Copper test kit but i'm hesitant because i'm afraid this may harm my fish. The scratching alone makes me feel i should be treating for ICK regardless whether he has it or not because i'd rather be safe then sorry.

How many days and how slow should i ramp the cupramine up to the recommended 0.5 level of copper? Also how long does prime stay in the water? i added a little prime 2 days ago and know that PRIME and CUPRAMINE are a no no together.

If i can convince the wife to let me buy the second pieces of equipment to do TTM i have a few questions:

1. The tang has been in the 20 Gallon QT for 4 weeks so if i transfer him to a second tank is that considered the 1st transfer? or do i put him in the newly setup tank and when i transfer him back that's the first transfer?

2. Because he has been in a 20 gallon for 4 weeks. I will be able to get a couple ten gallons. Will reducing the size of the tank he is used to being in stress him out and make this whole method go down the drain as well?

Trying to get this last part of treatment out of the way but want to be successful. He has been so healthy thus far would hate to lose him to stress.

 

[fernalfer]

fish now breathing heavily. Tried to take a video but because of glare not that great:

 

[Diesel]

@Humblefish @melypr1985
Lets see what they come up with.
One thing is good about this is your fish is still in the QT.















[HASHTAG]#reefsquad[/HASHTAG]

 

[Reefahholic]

I have a feeling it may be Velvet at the time frame of 4 weeks. Velvet can take 4 weeks to present and has always popped up late for me. ICH usually pops up early.

I go with copper (Now) and be safe. Get up to 0.2 to 0.3 ppm and hold steady for 10 - 14 days or longer. I'd go longer if you can. If you have CP. Start with 400 mg per 10 gallons. Minimal of 10 days.

 

[fernalfer]

I have a feeling it may be Velvet at the time frame of 4 weeks. Velvet can take 4 weeks to present and has always popped up late for me. ICH usually pops up early.

I go with copper (Now) and be safe. Get up to 0.2 to 0.3 ppm and hold steady for 10 - 14 days or longer. I'd go longer if you can. If you have CP. Start with 400 mg per 10 gallons. Minimal of 10 days.

I will be using Cupramine. should i slowly ramp it up to therapeutic levels. They say 1/2 dose on day 1 wait 1 day and do last dose to be at 0.5. Should i spread those doses out even more so it is not as harsh on the fish?

 

[Humblefish]

That's some pretty heavy breathing, so I doubt it is ich. Probably velvet but flukes are another possibility. I would first administer a FW dip. This will accomplish two things: (1) Clear his gills of velvet or (2) Confirm this is actually flukes, and not velvet, which requires a different treatment. See below in red.

Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes & "Black Ich", Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

 

[Humblefish]

Flukes will look like what you see here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/flukes-–-general-guidelines.224423/page-2#post-2848504

 

[fernalfer]

That's some pretty heavy breathing, so I doubt it is ich. Probably velvet but flukes are another possibility. I would first administer a FW dip. This will accomplish two things: (1) Clear his gills of velvet or (2) Confirm this is actually flukes, and not velvet, which requires a different treatment. See below in red.

Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes & "Black Ich", Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

I doubt it would be flukes only becuase i did just get done with 2 rounds of prazipro about 4 days ago. Now not sure if i should do the freshwater dip because i was worried i started cupramine dosing. Can i still take him out and give him a FW dip. My tank is 20 gallons so i would need 70 drops to get me to 0.5. I dosed 14 drops about an hour ago so i can get it there over the course of 5 days.

 

[Humblefish]

I doubt it would be flukes only becuase i did just get done with 2 rounds of prazipro about 4 days ago. Now not sure if i should do the freshwater dip because i was worried i started cupramine dosing. Can i still take him out and give him a FW dip. My tank is 20 gallons so i would need 70 drops to get me to 0.5. I dosed 14 drops about an hour ago so i can get it there over the course of 5 days.

Ah I missed the part about already dosing Prazipro. The only way he should have flukes then is if it was a prazi resistant strain. You can still do a FW dip, however, to provide temporary relief (in case this is velvet.) You can do a FW dip and put the fish right back in copper.

No ammonia in the QT, right? I did notice in the video that the water looked a little cloudy.

 

[fernalfer]

I doubt it would be flukes only becuase i did just get done with 2 rounds of prazipro.

Ah I missed the part about already dosing Prazipro. The only way he should have flukes then is if it was a prazi resistant strain. You can still do a FW dip, however, to provide temporary relief (in case this is velvet.) You can do a FW dip and put the fish right back in copper.

No ammonia in the QT, right? I did notice in the video that the water looked a little cloudy.

No ammonia. just did a 50% WC prior to dosing the cupramine. Because of the glare and the black background makes the water look cloudy it isn't. a little nervous for this FW dip. Aerating water as i type. he is still breathing hard. Tested ammonia and nitrites prior to WC. Ammonia-0 Nitrites - 0.1

 

[Humblefish]

No ammonia. just did a 50% WC prior to dosing the cupramine. Because of the glare and the black background makes the water look cloudy it isn't. a little nervous for this FW dip. Aerating water as i type. he is still breathing hard. Tested ammonia and nitrites prior to WC. Ammonia-0 Nitrites - 0.1

Just use RODI, aerate/temp match the water, and do the FW dip for no longer than 5 mins. Look for flukes (just in case) while he's in there. If he dies during the dip or shortly thereafter, I can promise you he wasn't gonna last much longer anyway.

 

[fernalfer]

Just use RODI, aerate/temp match the water, and do the FW dip for no longer than 5 mins. Look for flukes (just in case) while he's in there. If he dies during the dip or shortly thereafter, I can promise you he wasn't gonna last much longer anyway.

I uploaded a better video so hopefully you can better see his breathing. He seems fine swimming around and is eating like a pig still. Just unsure whether to give him a FW dip or just let the Copper treatment run its course and hopefully in time. the video still not great looks so much better on phone. At the 50 second mark you can see the gills and breathing best.

 

[Humblefish]

His breathing looks better in your latest video. Still elevated, but not as bad as before IMO.

 

[fernalfer]

His breathing looks better in your latest video. Still elevated, but not as bad as before IMO.

so i'm ready for this dip should i go ahead with it or just let the Cupramine run its course?

 

[Humblefish]

so i'm ready for this dip should i go ahead with it or just let the Cupramine run its course?

I personally would still do the FW dip, yes.

 

[fernalfer]

I personally would still do the FW dip, yes.

ok i did the dip, he laid on his side for 30 seconds and spent the last 4 minutes zipping around the bucket like a maniac. Here is a pic. I see some white things on bottom of bucket but unsure if that was there already or not. few black dots as well

 

[Humblefish]

When I click on it, it won't show me a close up. Below are what flukes look like (little white things) once exposed to FW:

 

[fernalfer]

try clicking on that it may make pic bigger. they just don't look as big and all round like the pics you provided.


[img=http://s31.postimg.org/7tx725kg7/Screenshot_2016_06_13_16_26_24.jpg]

 

[Humblefish]

That doesn't look like flukes to me. Just "crap" in the water. How is he looking now that he's back in QT?

 

[fernalfer]

That doesn't look like flukes to me. Just "crap" in the water. How is he looking now that he's back in QT?

He is just sitting in one spot. was really dark when added back to the tank but his yellow color is slowly coming back but breathing just as hard as before he went into the dip.

Hey i have a sponge that has been in my main display sump. Can i put that in my QT tank tied to the pvc? I already have 2 sponges in the HOB filter but figure why not add that extra bacteria to help out. Just not sure if i can add it directly in the tank.