Can't get nitrates to show on Salifert test....

[Kevo6708]

Good Afternoon,
I set up a 90 gallon DT with a 40 gallon sump about a month and half ago. I used "live" sand, dry rock and live rock from a tank that had been running for quite some time. I did the ghost feeding for a few weeks and allowed the tank to cycle. Had a slight green algae bloom on the dry rock but which is fairly normal. I was testing 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and a slight amount of nitrates after several weeks. I added fish about 2 weeks ago and they are doing great. The problem (and maybe it's not a problem at all) is that I can't get my tests to show any nitrate or phosphates. I tried doubling the feeding schedule based on advice from my LFS and that hasn't worked either. I have the skimmer off and haven't run it in for the better part of a week (it wasn't doing much anyway). Why can't I get a reading for nutrients? I even tested with an API saltwater kit just to make sure my Salifert tests were good. Same readings. I would like to start adding corals in the coming months and was looking for a nitrate level of 2-5ppm and phosphates around .02. Do I need to dose these nutrients? Do I need to sit on my hands and be patient as the micro-ecosystem matures? Any help is appreciated.

Here are my numbers:
Use 5 stage RODI water
Ammonia=0
Nitrites=0
Nitrates=0
Phosphates=0
Calcium=465ppm
Alkilinity=7.7dKH
Magnesium=1380ppm
Salinity=1.025 d SG
PH=8.3

Kevin

 

[lpsouth1978]

How many and what fish did you add? Are you running a fuge? Any algae growing in the system? My guess is that you don't have enough fish yet to produce enough waste to overwhelm your setup. With you water volume, if you have only a few small fish (which you should after only 2 weeks of adding them) the bacteria that is present in the system is likely able to consume all of the nutrients before you can test fro them.

Slowly keep adding fish, one or 2 every other week to a month, feed those fish to keep them all fat and healthy, and let the tank mature a couple of months before moving on to corals.

 

[Kevo6708]

After the cycle I added a firefish, yellow watchman goby, royal gramma, osc clown and a bangaii cardinal (all from a nano tank I have been running for quite some time). I have 2 black clowns that are in QT until tomorrow that I can put in over the weekend. I also have a coral banded shrimp, pistol shrimp and some turbo and nasserius snails for the CUC. I have a fuge with live rock, a few turbos and I picked up some chaeto but haven't added it yet as I don't want to add anything that will further drive down the nutrient numbers. I do have green algae growth on the dry rock and even some green build up in the fuge on the glass.

 

[lpsouth1978]

The CUC don't really factor into the bioload IMO, they add very little waste and do more to reduce problems than add to them, unless they die in the tank of course. I would be VERY cautious about having three clowns in a tank that size. They can be quite territorial and VERY aggressive. It is likely that you will end up with at least one of the clowns being bullied to death.

All of the fish you have are small and it is a light load for this system. I would add some wrasses, more cardinals, anthias, etc., whatever is compatible that you like. Things will start to turn around and you will see your nutrients increase. Just add the fish slowly to avoid any ammonia spikes.

 

[Little_Red_Ryan_Hood]

I agree with other the other members. Add some more fish and you will eventually be just fine.

Although, 0 nitrate and phosphate is not good for corals. In the short term you could dose nitrate and phosphate to keep your levels near .03 PO4 and 2-5 nitrate.

If you are looking for a nitrate and phosphate additive check out Acroporium.com

 

[Kevo6708]

Curious what else might be compatible with the group I listed? I’ve looked at the compatibility charts and I’ve found you never really know how they will interact as they all seem to have their own personality. In my freshwater experience, I’ve obtained fish by proxie that should never be kept together and they do fine. I assume that translates to the saltwater species too.

 

[brandon429]

i want to take the stance of being concerned the cycle isn't complete, due to not reading proof of a core cycling measure from all printed materials-nitrate is required to be read when a bioload is present to prove the waste is being converted, is that right?

if there is no nitrate, can that be proven here that the cycle isn't finished? isnt production of nitrate absolutely required for cycle proofing? it is just a month old?

 

[Kevo6708]

Here’s what I did for the cycle.

added “live” sand
added the dry rock
Filled the tank with 5 stage RODI mixed with instant ocean salt and allowed to homogenize for 24 hours.
added “live” rock from an established tank (approx 20lbs)
Ghost fed the tank until I was seeing ammonia and nitrites and ultimately a detectable trace of nitrates.
Green algae growth begins.
Detritus is noticeable on the sand.
added 5 fish a few shrimp and a CUC
I have been double feeding for a week and have powered off the skimmer.
Ammonia, nitrites, phosphates and nitrates have been undetectable since.

 

[Little_Red_Ryan_Hood]

i want to take the stance of being concerned the cycle isn't complete, due to not reading proof of a core cycling measure from all printed materials-nitrate is required to be read when a bioload is present to prove the waste is being converted, is that right?

if there is no nitrate, can that be proven here that the cycle isn't finished? isnt production of nitrate absolutely required for cycle proofing? it is just a month old?

I think you make a good point and that might be the case. Although, I would think the tank has cycled based on the amount of time the OP fed the tank. If it was my tank I would not rule out your theory.

 

[Little_Red_Ryan_Hood]

Here’s what I did for the cycle.

added “live” sand
added the dry rock
Filled the tank with 5 stage RODI mixed with instant ocean salt and allowed to homogenize for 24 hours.
added “live” rock from an established tank (approx 20lbs)
Ghost fed the tank until I was seeing ammonia and nitrites and ultimately a detectable trace of nitrates.
Green algae growth begins.
Detritus is noticeable on the sand.
added 5 fish a few shrimp and a CUC
I have been double feeding for a week and have powered off the skimmer.
Ammonia, nitrites, phosphates and nitrates have been undetectable since.

Knowing this, I would try dosing nitrate and phosphate. As long as you check your levels, there is nothing wrong with dosing. In the short term, it might show you where your problem is and what you need to do.
Long term, I would get more fish.
I struggle to keep my nutrients up because I don't have enough fish in my tank. I dose nitrate and phosphate daily. It is cheap and effective.

 

[Kevo6708]

Would dosing the tank be beneficial without coral in the tank? Sounds like I need a larger bio-load in the tank to satisfy the bacteria levels. I spent about 8 weeks planning and gathering the equipment and supplies to do this right. Maybe live sand and live rock from an established tank was overkill and now I need to balance that with the current bio-load? The algae growth tells me there has to be nutrients are present in the system (whether detectable or not from my tests). The CUC is working overtime on the green algae. My other thought is how is the bacteria level high enough to not detect nutrients yet that same level of bacteria is surviving with a lack of detectable nutrients? Wouldn't the bacteria die off as they middle with the nutrient levels?

 

[brandon429]

the truth is I do not doubt the cycle I was doing a social experiment to see how the forum reacts and Im partially sorry but Ryan did great


i had nothing better to do that take the stance of a cycle doubter to see how far i can take it, but it would mislead to go further i can see- i do not think its failed to cycle or that bac are not 100% fed in the current setup. anything ive ever typed shows its ok not to reference nitrate and nitrite in a cycle, and that only ammonia control, or living bioload + feed for days, is proof of completion.



i wont be doing opposites day very often / forgive but it is a unique way to get into how forums view cycling, and consequence etc. This tank is 100% cycled and the reasons nitrate isn't found is the same reason everyone doses stump remover to remedy. not related to the cycle.

 

[Little_Red_Ryan_Hood]

Would dosing the tank be beneficial without coral in the tank? Sounds like I need a larger bio-load in the tank to satisfy the bacteria levels. I spent about 8 weeks planning and gathering the equipment and supplies to do this right. Maybe live sand and live rock from an established tank was overkill and now I need to balance that with the current bio-load? The algae growth tells me there has to be nutrients are present in the system (whether detectable or not from my tests). The CUC is working overtime on the green algae. My other thought is how is the bacteria level high enough to not detect nutrients yet that same level of bacteria is surviving with a lack of detectable nutrients? Wouldn't the bacteria die off as they middle with the nutrient levels?

Yes, you need a larger bio load. Getting more fish is your best long term solution. I recommend dosing in the short term because introducing new fish through proper qt takes a while. Dosing will give you an immediate answer. Worst case scenario with dosing is, more algae.
Worst case with adding fish without a proper qt is devastating.

 

[Rmckoy]

i want to take the stance of being concerned the cycle isn't complete, due to not reading proof of a core cycling measure from all printed materials-nitrate is required to be read when a bioload is present to prove the waste is being converted, is that right?

if there is no nitrate, can that be proven here that the cycle isn't finished? isnt production of nitrate absolutely required for cycle proofing? it is just a month old?

Thinking back ...
close to 10-15 years .
I used a raw shrimp in a nylon .
tested ammonia every day and I believe the ammonia tested 4 ppm and maintained that level for sp many days until nitrite started .
as one went up , ammonia went down until ammonia tested 0

same for nitrite but I can’t remember the actual tested value

as nitrates were present and gradually increased nitrites went down .
When you can test 0 for both ammonia and nitrite there should be a spike in nitrates .
a large water change to lower nitrates and you’re ready to start stocking slowly .
I didn’t like ghost feeding or dosing ammonia just because I didn’t want to maintain a specific level of ammonia .

 

[brandon429]

nowadays we see very amazing things though in that very well established rule: noncompliants.

for example, today's nitrite testing usually reads positive, when there is really just nitrate in the sample. In other tests, the aquarist has used Prime to get water ready, and thats a direct false positive for nitrite on API

but thousands of people search for stuck cycles, and buy bottle bac, when they use threefold cycling. they werent really lacking a cycle, though one of the measures might say they did

this actual thread shows very well how only ammonia matters in cycling...the other two may or may not be generated, or detected, person to person

he doesnt need more bac here, or any change of pace. add fish, or dont, wont matter your cycle is done. I only did the initial approach to see if my friends were paying attention/worm hole had opened.

 

[brandon429]

this thread here is a great illustration of classic conflicts in cycling, if he wasnt already carrying (and feeding) a bioload all this would sound crazy.


its amazing that old school cycle teachers left this much out of the manual, testing drift and interference and dilution issues in some new tanks. Living bioload being supported is done/its can't retroscale or get weaker as days go by.

surface area is either active, and manages life, or its not active, and the whole system exhibits kidney failure symptoms overnite because inability to control ammonia has obvious signs, well beyond what test kits might show.

lack of nitrate here is no more a surprise than the reason anyone buys stump remover to dump in their tank. I mentioned key words and hesitations above to reflect on these cycling conflicts forums must resolve.

 

[brandon429]

Nitrate undetectable in new reef--should I dose?

I have a new 5g reef in it's 8th week of cycling. It has a Duncan, shrooms, Xenia, a RFA, and blue damsel (all permanent residents). It's still in the ugly phase so some small patches of cyan on the sand and diatoms on the rocks. My nitrates are undetectable. However, the fish should be...

www.reef2reef.com

******perfect framing*****

exact same thread, but nobody doubts the cycle there, they handle it from a chemistry perspective not a microbial one. fascinating humans are we not. imagine how well bottle bac sellers get paid, in the middle of this gap of approach.

 

[Kevo6708]

Alright Brandon... my takeaway is that all the signs I posted were the equivalent of the answer and my “hunch” was the newbie in reefing in me and I went seeking approval?

*adding an LOL to my original post so intent isn’t misinterpreted.

 

[brandon429]

it was weird of me to come in reverse like that lol but it was my attempt at thespianism.
I could only carry it out one post that's pathetic I should have gotten into a full blown argument with myself about stuck vs not stuck cycling.

 

[Little_Red_Ryan_Hood]

Alright Brandon... my takeaway is that all the signs I posted were the equivalent of the answer and my “hunch” was the newbie in reefing in me and I went seeking approval?

*adding an LOL to my original post so intent isn’t misinterpreted.

I am somewhat confused because this forum was not about your tank being cycled or not. It was about your nitrate levels. I think we cleared up the cycle issue rather early on, but we keep talking about it. I am sorry your thread has turned in this direction.