Chaeto issues again! Is there a better way?

[Scrubber_steve]

Hey Steve - Since the OP was asking for suggestions on other methods I think it's inbounds to post this here.

Thanks Jeff. You raised some interesting points.
1. I use the overflow water to my sump to feed my ATS, no dedicated pump or return line loop. Lights run on a timer form the hardware store.
2. Not a big issue in general, but if you are away from home a lot for extended periods, and you have no one suitable to clean the screen, yes a fuge is definately more convenient.
3. I know pods eat ulva, so an ATS should be very beneficial for pods. But I have a sponge fuge and that does give them somewhere to live after they’ve been born.
4. Some good points raised here, but if away for long enough without a tank babysitter, & you have a return pump or fuge light failure, a fuge will not filter either. Anything is possible.
5. I understand what you're saying, but I think this is debatable. I've seen ATS ulva continue to grow in very low nutrient water, but when the bioload increases the ulva grows quicker.
6. My ATS, and most others I see photos of, normally grow ulva, which is a macro. In fact I don't believe that an ATS' grow microalgae ever. I know that Triton suggest that a fuge is better for converting co2 to o2, but I've read the argument and it’s rubbish.

Thanks again for your input Jeff, much appreciated.

 

[Jeff_H]

I forgot to ask how much water volume you have, but it looks like your return pump is moving around 1000 gph through the sump so I doubt it's a flow issue. Mine was really slow through a dedicated refugium when I was having the same issue.

Here are some thoughts that might help you track down your issue...

Your HD light doesn't have enough PAR to grow the Chaeto on the bottom or outer areas once it gets dense or grows wide across the refugium.
- Do you flip the chaeto as it grows to make sure the underside get enough light?
- When the chaeto starts to disintegrate, is it all brittle or just the bottom section or outer areas where the light doesn't reach as well? If it's all brittle I doubt it's the PAR level.

Not enough elements to support a large amount of chaeto.
- Most posts have been keying in on the additional elements since macroalgae seems to need more 'stuff' to grow continuously. Along with Nitrate and Phosphate (which you already have in abundance), I would look into Iron, Manganese, and Molybdenum. I've had success using Iron Concentrate JulianSprung's Reef Formula in a small hospital tank I keep up in running.
- The Triton 'other method' is almost identical to the 'full method' and I recently read a post from Tim of Triton USA indicating the only difference between the formulas is bottle 1. I suspect bottle 1 just has the enhanced levels of the elements needed to grow macroalgae more abundantly. That said - I don't know why you're not using the full method since you seem to be inline with it's doctrine, minus the smaller refugium size. If I recall correctly, the other method was for systems not running any macroalgae. You might consider switching over to give you a little more 'kick'. BTW: If you do decide the switch, you 'can' mix the other and full method together. I confirmed this with Tim and have done it successfully due to the supply shortage of full method bottles/cartons... Don't get me started.

Just my .02... If you find all the macroalgae is disintegrating regardless of it's position to the light, I would do the following:
1. Find a temporary Iron+ supplement to save what you still have and start dosing it for now.
2. Get some #5 or #7 plastic canvas and place it across the refugium overflow to stop the small bits from going into the skimmer section. These small pieces will grow back into a thick mat if you're patient.
3. Switch to the full Triton method formula (once you can order it again).

I think once you switch to the full method and/or you get your dose higher the problem will go away and you will not need to add anything extra. The third time was the charm for me once figured out I needed to dose additional elements, plus a little more flow. This is how I stumbled into the triton method early last year.

Good luck!

 

[Jeff_H]

Thanks Jeff. You raised some interesting points.
1. I use the overflow water to my sump to feed my ATS, no dedicated pump or return line loop. Lights run on a timer form the hardware store.
2. Not a big issue in general, but if you are away from home a lot for extended periods, and you have no one suitable to clean the screen, yes a fuge is definately more convenient.
3. I know pods eat ulva, so an ATS should be very beneficial for pods. But I have a sponge fuge and that does give them somewhere to live after they’ve been born.
4. Some good points raised here, but if away for long enough without a tank babysitter, & you have a return pump or fuge light failure, a fuge will not filter either. Anything is possible.
5. I understand what you're saying, but I think this is debatable. I've seen ATS ulva continue to grow in very low nutrient water, but when the bioload increases the ulva grows quicker.
6. My ATS, and most others I see photos of, normally grow ulva, which is a macro. In fact I don't believe that an ATS' grow microalgae ever. I know that Triton suggest that a fuge is better for converting co2 to o2, but I've read the argument and it’s rubbish.

Thanks again for your input Jeff, much appreciated.

Steve,

np... Like I said, they are both great options. I could come up with a list of items in favor the ATS as well. Just like this post, if you don't have the right 'things' align properly, Most macroalgae seems to melt away leaving you frustrated and needing to buy more to start again. When I deployed the ATS it just worked from the start.

 

[Neo Jeo]

Sounds like you fell into the trap most people have fallen into with triton, as i too had this issue. They dont recommend leaving it to grow unhibited and let it die off, but rather prune it when required, harvesting half dead and live macro. That way you are exporting nutrients via removal but leaving some dead algae to release the amino acids. Also making room for new algae growth.

I had a sump full of chaeto and various caulerpa melt on me due to nutrients being stripped too heavily after the sump filled. I then battled gha for months afterwards due to the excess nutrients due to the die off.

So remember to harvest taking old and new growth when required.

Mine died off now I have hair algae . What did you do to fix it?

 

[USMA36]

I forgot to ask how much water volume you have, but it looks like your return pump is moving around 1000 gph through the sump so I doubt it's a flow issue. Mine was really slow through a dedicated refugium when I was having the same issue.

Here are some thoughts that might help you track down your issue...

Your HD light doesn't have enough PAR to grow the Chaeto on the bottom or outer areas once it gets dense or grows wide across the refugium.
- Do you flip the chaeto as it grows to make sure the underside get enough light?
- When the chaeto starts to disintegrate, is it all brittle or just the bottom section or outer areas where the light doesn't reach as well? If it's all brittle I doubt it's the PAR level.

Not enough elements to support a large amount of chaeto.
- Most posts have been keying in on the additional elements since macroalgae seems to need more 'stuff' to grow continuously. Along with Nitrate and Phosphate (which you already have in abundance), I would look into Iron, Manganese, and Molybdenum. I've had success using Iron Concentrate JulianSprung's Reef Formula in a small hospital tank I keep up in running.
- The Triton 'other method' is almost identical to the 'full method' and I recently read a post from Tim of Triton USA indicating the only difference between the formulas is bottle 1. I suspect bottle 1 just has the enhanced levels of the elements needed to grow macroalgae more abundantly. That said - I don't know why you're not using the full method since you seem to be inline with it's doctrine, minus the smaller refugium size. If I recall correctly, the other method was for systems not running any macroalgae. You might consider switching over to give you a little more 'kick'. BTW: If you do decide the switch, you 'can' mix the other and full method together. I confirmed this with Tim and have done it successfully due to the supply shortage of full method bottles/cartons... Don't get me started.

Just my .02... If you find all the macroalgae is disintegrating regardless of it's position to the light, I would do the following:
1. Find a temporary Iron+ supplement to save what you still have and start dosing it for now.
2. Get some #5 or #7 plastic canvas and place it across the refugium overflow to stop the small bits from going into the skimmer section. These small pieces will grow back into a thick mat if you're patient.
3. Switch to the full Triton method formula (once you can order it again).

I think once you switch to the full method and/or you get your dose higher the problem will go away and you will not need to add anything extra. The third time was the charm for me once figured out I needed to dose additional elements, plus a little more flow. This is how I stumbled into the triton method early last year.

Good luck!

The Home Depot light definitely isn’t a Kessil. It’s a 90 watt Led daylight equivalent floodlight. I just can’t justify the cost of the h380 right now. I’m not sure the H80 would be much better. Since the light doesn’t penetrate I flip the chaeto once or twice a week.

It’s hard to tell from where the chaeto is disintegrating from. The first time I had a problem it get soft, mushy and just disappeared. This time it’s breaking into small pieces that get everywhere.

I asked in the triton forum about using the full method for my tank which is about 100 gallons total volume and Tim@Triton recommended against it. He said I would most likely battle a lot of nuisance algae.

I just ordered the Red Sea colors kit from Amazon. It comes with an iron supplement and potassium which I am also low on according to my last icp test. I’m not sure I’ll use the other two bottles of the kit but the kit was cheaper than buying the bottles individually.

 

[Brew12]

I just ordered the Red Sea colors kit from Amazon. It comes with an iron supplement and potassium which I am also low on according to my last icp test. I’m not sure I’ll use the other two bottles of the kit but the kit was cheaper than buying the bottles individually.

I think this is a great step. I had a hard time growing chaeto until I added the Red Sea part C. Now, it grows like a weed.

I do use the kessil h380 but I'm not sure I would have upgraded if I had started with the iron supplement first.

 

[Lasse]

I was having the same problem, then as a las t measure I changed the light. I bought a squeeze clamp light fixture and bought a combo red and blue led light bulb in it. The chaeto grows like crazy now. I read from BRS that you need a light purple light to grow chaeto. It solved my problem. I also aerate the refugium with a powerhead.

I have run a fuge with Chaeto no for nearly 18 months. I use mostly red light (660 and 630) and some blue (450 nm) Because of one of my blue LEDs break down - I have one white too for the moment. I had never seen a growth like this. I try to have around 4 ppm as NO3 and 0.05 as PO4. For the moment I dose around 1.5 ppm NO3 on a daily basis. I do not dose any PO4 -> for the moment it show 0 ppm (Hanna low range PO4). I also dose iodine on a daily basis (around 2-4 times recommended dose (Salifert)) I have for shorter time rise my K and Sr levels up to 400 ppm and 8 ppm. I also dosed som iron now and then.

The reason why I dose NO3 is that macro algae often not have a "normal" N/P ratio. The ratio among many macro algae can be as high as 80/1 compared with a ratio of 16/1.

I dose iodine too - and I know that some people do not think it is necessary. I have the opposite standpoint - at least when you are dealing with a fast Chaeto growth. During 1 year without WC i dose around 2-4 times more than the recommended dose of Salifert Natural Iodine on a daily base. In spite of this my Triton tests show a consumption of Iodine and my Iodine concentration has vary a lot - see graph. During this year - I have dosed around 1.5 litres of Salifert Natural Iodine - no WC

My triton date show a steady down going of potassium (K) and its not a surprise either - macro algae is rich in potassium too.

When I harvest my Chaeto - its mostly rather hard and crispy. I have my lighting over the fuge - and its 100*16*20 cm -> 32 litres. Water turnover in the fuge is around 70 times /hour and turnover for the whole system is around 7 times a hour. The chaeto is not tumbling - often when I harvest I can take out a compact cube with four sides. When I harvest - I take away so much as I can press down the chaeto around 5-6 cm from the surface - when I harvest next time - I normally can´t press it down at all. The sharp red light penetrate down to the bottom (straight through the compact biomass) and its green and crispy even at the bottom.

I feed 2 - 3 cubes frozen adult artemia every day.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I dose iodine too - and I know that some people do not think it is necessary. I have the opposite standpoint - at least when you are dealing with a fast Chaeto growth. During 1 year without WC i dose around 2-4 times more than the recommended dose of Salifert Natural Iodine on a daily base. In spite of this my Triton tests show a consumption of Iodine and my Iodine concentration has vary a lot - see graph. During this year - I have dosed around 1.5 litres of Salifert Natural Iodine - no WC

Have you tried not dosing the iodine to see if the chaeto growth slowed substantially?

Useful or not for other purposes, I looked for effects of iodine dosing on chaeto growth and found 9% higher growth in the iodine dosed samples, but it was not statistically significant. Light intensity was a far bigger effect.

https://web.archive.org/web/2003041...dvancedaquarist.com/issues/april2003/chem.htm

Figure 2. The growth of Chaetomorpha sp. samples as a function of position across the test apparatus.

 

[Potatohead]

I recently switched from 6500k CFL to red/blue 24w LED flood light. My growth rate increased at least six or eight times. Massive difference.

 

[Jeff_H]

The Home Depot light definitely isn’t a Kessil. It’s a 90 watt Led daylight equivalent floodlight. I just can’t justify the cost of the h380 right now. I’m not sure the H80 would be much better. Since the light doesn’t penetrate I flip the chaeto once or twice a week.

It’s hard to tell from where the chaeto is disintegrating from. The first time I had a problem it get soft, mushy and just disappeared. This time it’s breaking into small pieces that get everywhere.

I asked in the triton forum about using the full method for my tank which is about 100 gallons total volume and Tim@Triton recommended against it. He said I would most likely battle a lot of nuisance algae.

I just ordered the Red Sea colors kit from Amazon. It comes with an iron supplement and potassium which I am also low on according to my last icp test. I’m not sure I’ll use the other two bottles of the kit but the kit was cheaper than buying the bottles individually.

I agree that if you are having some success with the HD light, I wouldn't bother with it for now. I only asked the question to determine if 'all' the chaeto is brittle or just certain patches in relation to the par level. If you test the middle top portion and it's brittle, I don't think it's the light. Mine was 'all' brittle at one point and it was under an H380. I started to correct the supplements and added the canvas mesh to keep the chaeto in the refugium under my light and out of my other pumps. Once it recovered, I removed the mesh and I seldom have it leave the refugium section anymore. Down the road, the H380 could be a huge upgrade and would serve you better if you can't grow the chaeto fast enough to bring down your nitrates and phosphates.

That's an interesting comment Tim made since you are technically running the full Triton method and can't keep the macro alive for extended periods. I would understand his comment if you were growing health chaeto and didn't have enough room for it to expand and absorb all the additional supplements provided in the full method. This obviously would allow GHA to use the excess in your DT and cause a problem. If you think about it, you're about to add additional supplements that could lead to the same issue. I would think it would be better to run the full method until your dose is high enough that your refugium size can't grow enough chaeto to absorb all the elements, and at that point switch to the other method that doesn't contain the enhanced formula. Seems it's more about balance and not so black or white to me.

I might see Tim in the next couple of weeks and will ask him about this scenario. If I connect with him, I'll follow-up here and share what he says.

 

[Lasse]

No I have not done that - I´m not sure I dare But I have a demand of iodine in the aquaria - I had add a lot the past year - where where is it going? Only export of biomass during this time is harvest chaeto.

However - I know the opposite - a friend of mine get a lot of more growth when he started with iodine.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Forsaken77]

The Home Depot light definitely isn’t a Kessil. It’s a 90 watt Led daylight equivalent floodlight. I just can’t justify the cost of the h380 right now. I’m not sure the H80 would be much better. Since the light doesn’t penetrate I flip the chaeto once or twice a week.

It’s hard to tell from where the chaeto is disintegrating from. The first time I had a problem it get soft, mushy and just disappeared. This time it’s breaking into small pieces that get everywhere.

I asked in the triton forum about using the full method for my tank which is about 100 gallons total volume and Tim@Triton recommended against it. He said I would most likely battle a lot of nuisance algae.

I just ordered the Red Sea colors kit from Amazon. It comes with an iron supplement and potassium which I am also low on according to my last icp test. I’m not sure I’ll use the other two bottles of the kit but the kit was cheaper than buying the bottles individually.

You definitely DO NOT need a $300 Kessil light for your fuge! Many HD lights work just fine.

It may not be a nutrient/supplement issue either. Some people have had success lowering the light on top of the cheato (physically lowering it, not turning the intensity down). Cheato needs strong light to support it. Just hanging a fixture up high won't work.

I actually used a 6500K submersible light tube that was directed at the chaeto as it tumbled. But red light is a definite. I put a small counter current powerhead (500gph) to keep the cheato moving and forcing water through it. You just have to position the powerhead so the chaeto won't latch to it, by blocking side and top access. The powerhead bounced off the floor making the chaeto spin.

If you have to big of a ball, then water will naturally go around it at a fast pace.

But try lowering down the light fixture so it encompasses just the chaeto area and gives more intense light.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

No I have not done that - I´m not sure I dare But I have a demand of iodine in the aquaria - I had add a lot the past year - where where is it going? Only export of biomass during this time is harvest chaeto.

However - I know the opposite - a friend of mine get a lot of more growth when he started with iodine.

Sincerely Lasse

I think it is normal for iodine to deplete rapidly and algae (micro and macro) can take up a lot. It certainly depleted rapidly in my tank.

But it also did not seem to make any apparent different to the tank or the growth of macroalgae when I stopped dosing it.

It is not entirely well understood why macroalgae (especially brown seaweeds) accumulate iodide, but one hypothesis is to protect themselves in case of attack by herbivores or microorganisms. If that is the case, it may make little difference when chaeto is grown in a refugium.

Phytogenesis of halomethanes: A product ofselection or a metabolic accident?
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1019859922489

"There is a recent report (Malin et al. 2001) that products (oligoguluronates) from the breakdown (presumably by bacteria) of brown algal (Laminaria digitata) alginate-rich cell walls stimulate a short-lived burst in H2O2 production. This burst is followed by the sudden release of iodide and the elevated production of volatile iodocarbons including iodomethanes. Although this response may be specific for brown algae, and kelps in particular, it is intriguing because it strongly suggests that the increased polyhalomethanes production is a response to pathogenic attack."

 

[Lasse]

For how long time did you not dose Iodine? Did you do your normal 1-2 % WC a day?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

For how long time did you not dose Iodine? Did you do your normal 1-2 % WC a day?

Sincerely Lasse

I stopped iodine dosing of my aquarium in about 2003, so no dosing for more than 10 years. When not dosing, the levels measured with kits usually dropped to levels that were not well distinguished from none.

Many years later (2014), I had an ICP test done by triton (no dosing, but yes on daily water changes). It showed 0.022 ppm of some type of iodine, but I'm not sure what forms were present.

The water used in the growth test above had been in an aquarium with a lot of macroalgae for 1-2 months with no water changes.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Have you tried not dosing the iodine to see if the chaeto growth slowed substantially?

Useful or not for other purposes, I looked for effects of iodine dosing on chaeto growth and found 9% higher growth in the iodine dosed samples, but it was not statistically significant. Light intensity was a far bigger effect.

https://web.archive.org/web/2003041...dvancedaquarist.com/issues/april2003/chem.htm

Figure 2. The growth of Chaetomorpha sp. samples as a function of position across the test apparatus.

Dana stated "Chaeto requires very little light. I used a CFL lamp in a inexpensive aluminum reflector. It grew from a size that would fill a teacup to that that would fill a 5 gallon bucket. No need to get fancy but the PAR lamps you're looking at would generate more PUR."
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/best-leds-for-chaeto.344046/page-2#post-4282721

 

[vio]

I have 99% SPS 300 Gal. Display tank , 450-500 Gal. system , i use to grow Macro Algae a lot, Algae Scrubber ( Big one) , YES make my Nitrate undetectable , low PO4 , but after few years i realize is NOT the best way to control Nitrate , i got some Frags , still Frags for 2 years , NO color , i feed a lot , i got around 20 Fish , my Hippo is close to 10", i decide to go dif. route , i use to dose all kind of stuff to see list some NO3, after Triton test , low in Potassium, Iron, Manganese ,Sulfur. i decide to try Sulfur Denitrification Sulfur , i start to got a way much Color , grow in my SPS, i have very little GFO , My # is NO3- 2.5 to Max. 4 ppm , PO4 0.02 to 0.05 ppm, So far ( 2 months up ) NEVER i was so glad. I am NOT convince 100% Macro Algae remove most NO3, Magnesium, Iron , i think they remove a way more then that. I use to run Bio-Pellets , i like it compare Vodka, Vinegar, Sugar, Vit.-C or any source of Carbon , i have few way to measure the density of Bacteria , i realize Bio-Pellets is the best of all Carbon source, if you run the right way most of Bacteria stay in reactor NOT all over the tank like Vodka,Vinegar, the problem with B.P. most of reactors on market wont work well, need very gentle move ( NOT like crash Marble) to create the Bio-Mass , first stage to reproduce , grow Bacteria, reactor need dual OUTput to relese the pressure inside reactor , also bottom have to be cove shape , increase the move and reduce friction , the main think is how to control the Bio-Mass to stay inside reactor , one of the BEST Bio-Pellets brand is the NP ( made in Holland , first they come out) those NP Pellets move easy , melt in right way. I just give up in Macro Algae, but may work well for Mix. LPS or only LPS. Best light for Chaetto , i use H.O. T5 2.600 K , Chaetto love , high intensity light , lots of space, lots of water flow, NO more then 18 hrs. light ON. Algae Scrubber less space , less watts on light fix. Same result , works perfect to strip ALL your Nitrate, you may have to learn , how to balance , how much to remove.

My Sulfur Denitrification Filter is DIY , may look ridiculous , but........keep my Nitrate , were i want.
After i remove Chatto my Nitrate go to 35-50 ppm , take 6 weeks to drop to 4 ppm.
If you don't have a good Protein Skimmer , NOT even try Bio-Pellets.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Algae Scrubber less space , less watts on light fix. Same result , works perfect to strip ALL your Nitrate, you may have to learn , how to balance , how much to remove.

My Sulfur Denitrification Filter is DIY , may look ridiculous , but........keep my Nitrate , were i want.
After i remove Chatto my Nitrate go to 35-50 ppm , take 6 weeks to drop to 4 ppm.
If you don't have a good Protein Skimmer , NOT even try Bio-Pellets.

While both work fine, if your algae scrubber is so effective at removing nitrate, why are you also using a sulfur denitrator?

 

[LagunaGlide]

I have been following along due to having no growth out of my chaeto regardless of 3 different lights I tried. I believe I too may need to dose iron. What are some suggestions for this? Not trying to hijack.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have been following along due to having no growth out of my chaeto regardless of 3 different lights I tried. I believe I too may need to dose iron. What are some suggestions for this? Not trying to hijack.

DIY Iron dosing is easy. This is my DIY iron dose using Fergon tablets from a drug store:

Take 1 tablet and dissolve in 100 mL RO/DI (overnight soak). Let the solids settle out and use the liquid. Then I dose about 1-5 mL to my 200 gallons (dose is not critical) occasionally.

One tablet is 27 mg iron, so that dose comes to about 0.3 to 1.4 mg.

Put into 200 gallons, that's about 0.4 to 1.8 ppb.