Chaeto recovery time after using UWC Vibrant?

[youcallmenny1]

I have a Red Sea Peninsula 650 with an good size refugium in the sump. I have been growing chaeto for a long time and harvesting it by the trash bag on a monthly basis. Two months ago I made a rash decision to dose Vibrant and had predictable results. The chaeto hasn't completely died but isn't growing and is slowly decaying. There's a good amount left but I rely on only my fuge and skimmer for export. The tank is still happy and nitrates are where I want them to be but phosphates are slowly climbing without the macro growth occurring. I've done several sizeable water changes in the meantime to help it recover but it's slow going.

What I would like to hear from the community specifically is how long it took that macro in the fuge to recover and start growing again so I can plan accordingly and take some alternate steps for phosphate removal until the chaeto can resume it's work. Let's keep it civil please. This question and subsequent answers are important to me right now so I'd rather not get my thread shut down due to dogpiling the product.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

No one is going to freak out and be uncivil, so let's not start off assuming that's going to be a problem. It isn't.

That said, I do not know how long (or if) it will take the chaeto to begin to grow fast, but if I was concerned about it taking too long, I might try to get some fresh chaeto. Be forewarned that it may be very different in different reef tanks, where the factors that impact toxicity can vary a lot (organic levels, detritus and mineral surfaces to bind to, dosed amounts and times, etc.). Some it may take a lot of reported experiences to get a good handle on how long it may take.

 

[taricha]

Significant variation is possible, of course. But a ballpark expectation can be of a couple of weeks.

I base that on people using a "maintenance dose" of the product once every two weeks and being able to avoid melting their chaeto, mostly.

 

[Dan_P]

Significant variation is possible, of course. But a ballpark expectation can be of a couple of weeks.

I base that on people using a "maintenance dose" of the product once every two weeks and being able to avoid melting their chaeto, mostly.

Is there a large enough degree of uncertainty here that the answer might be “2 weeks to never”?

 

[moz71]

So my experience after 10 weeks of vibrant. I put my cheato back in after a month and just like you. Did not grow and did not die either but maybe a tiny bit. I am now experimenting by taking it out thinking this residual vibrant bound to it. So I removed that batch of cheato and put in another clump about a week ago. Waiting to see how this does. Weird thing is I have a pretty large growth of hair algae in tank growing as the cheato stalled.
Edit btw I am on three months from vibrant end and no cheato growth just yet

 

[youcallmenny1]

So my experience after 10 weeks of vibrant. I put my cheato back in after a month and just like you. Did not grow and did not die either but maybe a tiny bit. I am now experimenting by taking it out thinking this residual vibrant bound to it. So I removed that batch of cheato and put in another clump about a week ago. Waiting to see how this does. Weird thing is I have a pretty large growth of hair algae in tank growing as the cheato stalled.

This is exactly what I wanted to hear. Same story for me. The chaeto stalled out but the GHA/dinos/cyano got going elsewhere. I know it'll level back out with time. I think you and @Randy Holmes-Farley might be correct though and this batch might just be torched. I'll source some more clean chaeto and report back here in the hopes we find an easy fix.

Keep me posted on how your new batch is doing!

 

[taricha]

Is there a large enough degree of uncertainty here that the answer might be “2 weeks to never”?

sorta. In the sense that if the last dose melted your macroalgae, then it doesn't matter how long you wait to do the next one.
But I'd guess that two weeks after one dose of Vibrant, a new ball of chaeto will probably be fine (for most people). Some find it more like a month.

 

[WVNed]

Mine took 2 months or more.

 

[moz71]

This is exactly what I wanted to hear. Same story for me. The chaeto stalled out but the GHA/dinos/cyano got going elsewhere. I know it'll level back out with time. I think you and @Randy Holmes-Farley might be correct though and this batch might just be torched. I'll source some more clean chaeto and report back here in the hopes we find an easy fix.

Keep me posted on how your new batch is doing!

I will keep you all posted! I am tracking and hoping this batch starts growing!

 

[youcallmenny1]

sorta. In the sense that if the last dose melted your macroalgae, then it doesn't matter how long you wait to do the next one.
But I'd guess that two weeks after one dose of Vibrant, a new ball of chaeto will probably be fine (for most people). Some find it more like a month.

Probably a fair claim. I think the question was more centered around the old ball but the period in between dosing and adding new macro is just as important now that you mention it since that is what myself and @moz71 are trying. I have new chaeto and dragon's breath on the way!

 

[moz71]

Oh another note for observation, the GHA that is growing is all in the shaded areas of tank. And the GHA in refrug is dying off. Not sure what is going on here but I do remember I believe @taricha mentioned in the original vibrant thread about light triggering hypersensitivity ( I am paraphrasing here) So maybe still in tank after all this time

 

[youcallmenny1]

Oh another note for observation, the GHA that is growing is all in the shaded areas of tank. And the GHA in refrug is dying off. Not sure what is going on here but I do remember I believe @taricha mentioned in the original vibrant thread about light triggering hypersensitivity ( I am paraphrasing here) So maybe still in tank after all this time

I just see it as bound up nutrients in the chaeto getting redestributed in to uglies elsewhere. Once the macro in the fuge gets going I'm sure it'll all die back off. I have a lot of light in my fuge though so maybe that will vary if you don't.

 

[Dan_P]

Oh another note for observation, the GHA that is growing is all in the shaded areas of tank. And the GHA in refrug is dying off. Not sure what is going on here but I do remember I believe @taricha mentioned in the original vibrant thread about light triggering hypersensitivity ( I am paraphrasing here) So maybe still in tank after all this time

Interesting observation. Nitrogen depletion, e.g., low nitrates, could do something similar to algae and cyanobacteria. The result is yellowish coloration and limp filaments.

 

[Dan_P]

So my experience after 10 weeks of vibrant. I put my cheato back in after a month and just like you. Did not grow and did not die either but maybe a tiny bit. I am now experimenting by taking it out thinking this residual vibrant bound to it. So I removed that batch of cheato and put in another clump about a week ago. Waiting to see how this does. Weird thing is I have a pretty large growth of hair algae in tank growing as the cheato stalled.
Edit btw I am on three months from vibrant end and no cheato growth just yet

I wonder whether the water has accumulated Vibrant and Chaeto is sponging it up. Also, there might be a fixed amount of Vibrant removed per ball of fresh Cheato. Sounds like the GHA might not care about the current level of Vibrant. Weird stuff polyquats.

 

[taricha]

Oh another note for observation, the GHA that is growing is all in the shaded areas of tank. And the GHA in refrug is dying off. Not sure what is going on here but I do remember I believe @taricha mentioned in the original vibrant thread about light triggering hypersensitivity ( I am paraphrasing here) So maybe still in tank after all this time

To clarify this a bit, earlier in the "is it fluco?" thread @ScottB mentioned that his shaded GHA did not succumb to vibrant, and suggested it might have a photo sensitive affect like some other algae killers.
But there are other explanations for that, such as shaded algae also likely is more protected and gets less flow so is less affected by vibrant in the water.

 

[youcallmenny1]

To clarify this a bit, earlier in the "is it fluco?" thread @ScottB mentioned that his shaded GHA did not succumb to vibrant, and suggested it might have a photo sensitive affect like some other algae killers.
But there are other explanations for that, such as shaded algae also likely is more protected and gets less flow so is less affected by vibrant in the water.

That's definitely not the case with mine. It's all in high-light areas, even at the peak of some of the rockwork.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

There are lots of ways that organisms strive to evade the effect of natural cationic antimicrobials and algaecides. The charge of organism surfaces is a big factor in whether polycations kill them or not (or at what dose). This is especially well known for bacteria, but I expect it may extend to algae as well, and some types of algae will just be more resistant than others.

Antimicrobial Peptides: Mechanisms of Action and Resistance

More than 40 antimicrobial peptides and proteins (AMPs) are expressed in the oral cavity. These AMPs have been organized into 6 functional groups, 1 of which, cationic AMPs, has received extensive attention in recent years for their promise as potential ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Cationic AMPs are attracted to the negatively charged outer membrane or cell wall of bacteria, but these, in turn, can reduce their surface charge and increase surface density to limit peptide adhesion. In gram-positive bacteria, D-alanylation of wall teichoic and lipoteichoic acids reduces the net negative charge and confers relative protection against AMPs "

 

[youcallmenny1]

I threw a new wad of chaeto and a ball of dragon's breath in the fuge today. Fingers crossed!

 

[moz71]

My second batch not looking so well so far Urg! Probably going to take it out and wait another couple months to try again!

 

[youcallmenny1]

It's been a couple of weeks and the new chaeto and dragon's breath have neither grown nor died. Pretty strange. Not very helpful with my nutrient controls. I am really wondering when it will grow again.