Chalice pricing and LE discussion thread.
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Erin, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from so I don't label it drama and whining. If you feel that your comments are legitimate, please - feel free to PM and explain it to me. Don't start something and say you'd be just as happy to let it go now...
I totally agree ktar. This whole thing has gotten out of hand and will only continue to get worse. Its kind of like when $100 million dollar contracts in baseball were a big deal
It has created a section of the market to be untrustworthy and has ultimately pushed me to be tighter with my money and who I spend it with. Many of the chalices out there will morph in captivity (unlike your melting pot) and I have got to the point that I am pretty turned off with the market. I have a couple nice chalices and I am ok with that. Are there others out there that I would like to collect and grow out, but I have kind of taken myself out of the crazy chalice game. Besides, I am an SPS guy
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The love of money is the root of all evil, not money itself. 
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Erin, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from so I don't label it drama and whining. If you feel that your comments are legitimate, please - feel free to PM and explain it to me. Don't start something and say you'd be just as happy to let it go now...
Vince, I didn't start something. I responded to something. Namely, your labelling of the discussion of quality as "drama and whining." If you would like me to be forthright and honest about my opinion I will do so publically. I am not interested in pm-ing you.
Mallard
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Very cool thanks Rev. The Titan Chalice is better looking in person but again I am somewhat limited in my exposure to high end chalices. The only reason I even posted that I had it in the other thread is because no one else had posted one or even had made mention of it. Anything Tyree usually gets a lot of attention. I agree, some pieces are outrageously expensive BUT people are still buying. Businesses are not a charity and will quickly go out of business selling well below market value. Also, you have to remember that just by placing a high price tag/cool name on something can actually generate more interest and demand and the cycle continues. There are two sides to this hobby, the love of our pieces of the ocean and those who provide the pieces we create our ocean out of. As our hobby expands so will the prices until supply catches up. But when a coral is a slow grower, someone looses the mother colony or generates a lot of interest it is going to demand a high price tag. Its just the nature of the beast.
I have always thought that Steve's business plan was great because he was a pioneer in the way he has marketed reeffarmers and the corals. I have always wondered why people try to "play second fiddle" to the original. I understand that that everyone wants their own LE, but if its not on Steve's site, then IMO (and my wallet), its not an LE. Heck, Look at what ebay has done to our hobby, I can go get some "rare" bam bam oranges for some ridiculous price when they have been in the hobby since I started collecting corals.
I still think that the best corals are those that are proven corals and that have a track record in captivity. Wild pieces are nice and all, but I'll pay more more a proven piece any day of the week.
My comment was based on the name identification (or MIS-identification), not the asking $$$ amount. If a reefer wants a coral, he/she will pay the price, regardless of the cost. My concern is when everyone calls their chalice an AE Watermelon when it has very little to no resemblance to the original one. This is deceptive to all reefers.
That type of name-calling deception is pure marketing, merely to ride the wave of popularity and sales. It's a Buyer-Beware market.
I'm with Mark.....I started collecting echinos/chalices/oxys many years ago when they were not very popular. At this time, I have also taken myself out of what is now a race that will never be won (very similar to the computer technology market).
I look for frags that I like and grow them out, not for profit, but for viewing pleasure. On occasion, I will frag some of them and offer them for sale or trade. My main goal is to see them grow out and take pictures of them as they mature and/or morph..
That type of name-calling deception is pure marketing, merely to ride the wave of popularity and sales. It's a Buyer-Beware market.
I'm with Mark.....I started collecting echinos/chalices/oxys many years ago when they were not very popular. At this time, I have also taken myself out of what is now a race that will never be won (very similar to the computer technology market).
I look for frags that I like and grow them out, not for profit, but for viewing pleasure. On occasion, I will frag some of them and offer them for sale or trade. My main goal is to see them grow out and take pictures of them as they mature and/or morph..
Mallard, I'm sorry I got you caught up in this. Naturally, you should be excited about your first piece. I have a lot of LE and AE pieces and love each and every one of them. All I'm really suggesting is that the retailers (I use this in the broadest sense) are ultimately hurting themselves by labelling to many chalices as LE/AE.
Heck, Look at what ebay has done to our hobby, I can go get some "rare" bam bam oranges for some ridiculous price when they have been in the hobby since I started collecting corals.
I still think that the best corals are those that are proven corals and that have a track record in captivity. Wild pieces are nice and all, but I'll pay more more a proven piece any day of the week.
Mark, although I understand where your coming form I don't really see a problem with individuals or retailers labelling pieces LE/AE if it really is something special. I think we can all look at certain pieces and have a pretty good sense at this point. What bothers me is the growing tendency to label each and every chalice LE/AE. Its even more disturbing when the Tyree, who use to be the gold standard, appears to be doing the same thing.
I also agree with you about the proven v. wild but there are some really sweet wild pieces out there. It's just tough to pay a lot of money for them when there is a good possibility they won't hold the coloration.
Mallard
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Oh I have no problem with it. I understand you weren't attacking/pointing me out but the fact that a coral that on the picture alone looks like nothing special. You posted a comment regarding your frustration and thanks to Rev we've got a place to discuss it. For those who are truly fed up with prices, all it takes is a friendly place like R2R to have group grow outs and friends who share pieces regardless of price. By sharing the love of the hobby without seeing $$$ when your new LE piece is growing a new eye. But at the same time, we all (I'm still trying :neutral are growing corals out and selling them to pay for our hobby. Its a fine line regarding the pricing but the LE labeled pieces isn't going away. LE/AE now is just a marketing tool. I could careless if a piece is LE or whatever but I do know that a Tyree or ORA piece is going to look great in my tank. Just ignore the LE and look at the source.
are growing corals out and selling them to pay for our hobby. Its a fine line regarding the pricing but the LE labeled pieces isn't going away. LE/AE now is just a marketing tool. I could careless if a piece is LE or whatever but I do know that a Tyree or ORA piece is going to look great in my tank. Just ignore the LE and look at the source.
I guess its just the business side of me that gives Steve a pass as it was his tool to achieve his business model. I guess one of the places he went wrong was not putting a copyright on the terms "LE/AE"
I do agree that Steve has been putting more chalice pieces out than others, but since businesses are driven by revenue and people are paying ridiclous prices, I'd be doing the same.Like you said, his name is the gold standard, so why are retailers trying to paint ther corals with gold spray paint. Reefers are crazy;Two little letters in front of a coral is not selling a coral as much as the word "Tyree" does.
Because if this, there are retailers and hobbyist alike who get a similar piece already in the market and try to name it the same (just as Bob said) for big bucks. It frustrates me that we as consumers still support the businesses/hobbyists(are they really) that are deceitful and downright dishonest.
This discussion hit home for me a great deal in terms of the "race" or the competition for the "best" corals.
I have been accused many times by many different people/LFS's of just buying to sell. Also, Ive been trash talked for buying the "trendy" coral of the moments.
What most people dont realize is that ive in been this hobby for a couple years.
Myself, im darn proud of the advances ive made, and the collection ive got.
For people to openly accuse people of foul play is pretty lame.
Im buying the best corals that are available right now....having only been in the hobby for a couple years.....whats been available in large supply?
acans and chalices....
for a while zoas/palys....but those are less and less available (premium morphs).
The name game in my mind is a double edge sword. It helps ID corals from one to another. However, it also can take a coral that at wholesale might be 80 for a 6 x 6 or larger colony....yet it sells for 250 an eye...
I dont like, no one does...but ive learned to accept it. People have been forced to jack prices up on their own stuff too....how else can anyone afford the new corals? get a second mortgage?
it is what it is...we can talk about it all day, but i dont see anything changing anytime soon.
I have been accused many times by many different people/LFS's of just buying to sell. Also, Ive been trash talked for buying the "trendy" coral of the moments.
What most people dont realize is that ive in been this hobby for a couple years.
Myself, im darn proud of the advances ive made, and the collection ive got.
For people to openly accuse people of foul play is pretty lame.
Im buying the best corals that are available right now....having only been in the hobby for a couple years.....whats been available in large supply?
acans and chalices....
for a while zoas/palys....but those are less and less available (premium morphs).
The name game in my mind is a double edge sword. It helps ID corals from one to another. However, it also can take a coral that at wholesale might be 80 for a 6 x 6 or larger colony....yet it sells for 250 an eye...
I dont like, no one does...but ive learned to accept it. People have been forced to jack prices up on their own stuff too....how else can anyone afford the new corals? get a second mortgage?
it is what it is...we can talk about it all day, but i dont see anything changing anytime soon.
pookstreet
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I've had a great day today with my family. Hope everyone else did too!
