Change From NoPox to Vinager?

SPR1968 · Jan 1, 2018

I’ve used Red Sea NoPox for around 18 months and I’ve read various posts about the use of vinager as carbon dosing.

I currently dose around 12ml per day of NoPox. So if I was to change to vinager, what would the equivalent dose be and is there a formula to work this out?

Also are there any risks or precautions to be aware of if I swap over?

Is the vinager just plain white vinager or anything special?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jan 1, 2018

Normal cheap distilled white vinegar.

There's no real exact way to match one chemical effect to another in this context, but a reasonable dose would be something like 5 times as much vinegar as you were dosing NOPOX. Then readjust as needed.

There will be a bigger immediate pH drop (and less drop later when it is metabolized).

redfishbluefish · Jan 1, 2018

If you wish to stay with NOPOX, you can always make your own by taking 500 mls vinegar (5%), 375 mls vodka (80 proof), and 125 mls RO/DI. This formula was determined by NMR analysis. This way you can stick to your 12 ml dosing.

SPR1968 · Jan 1, 2018

Thanks Randy, Paul, for the information which is very helpful indeed.

I’ve read that much on this subject it’s great to just get a simple, ‘this is how you do it’ and I’ve now got options for vinager or make my own.

I hadn’t even thought of making my own which seems a great idea. Do you happen to have a link to the NMR analysis so I can read up on it a bit more and I can then decide which route to take?

redfishbluefish · Jan 2, 2018

SPR1968 said:
............Do you happen to have a link to the NMR analysis so I can read up on it a bit more and I can then decide which route to take?

THIS LINK does take you to another site, and the discussion starts on page 2, post#48

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jan 2, 2018

FWIW, that discussion will really only help you make a DIY NOPOX, not really to distinguish whether such a method is better or worse than a different method, such as vinegar alone.

Both ways work well, but there are differences that may impact different systems in different ways (for example, whether there are unsightly species of bacteria already in your tank that are driven by either method)

SPR1968 · Jan 2, 2018

Thanks for your help guys it’s very interesting reading, and Randy thanks for reminding me about the potential for bacteria, possibly of the unwanted kind.

I currently have no algea issues etc., but am just looking at the options as my 5 litre NoPox bottle is about 3/4 empty. I may end up sticking with it as the system is spotless as far as nasty stuff goes (at least for the moment!), and as pointed out, I don’t want to risk ‘igniting’ some nasty bacteria outbreak by changing something. Maybe the term ‘if it isn’t broke.....’

Once again thank you for your time and help and I can now read up a bit more on all of this.

Mindi · Feb 12, 2018

Thanks for this thread. With NOPOX now $50 a litre here (if you can find that) I am finally switching to either DIY Nopox or straight vinegar. Obviously straight vinegar is easiest... just a bit concerned about pH impact. I guess the obvious thing would be to try straight Vinegar and monitor...?

Cnidoblast · Feb 12, 2018

@Randy Holmes-Farley I wonder if sodium acetate would make a good carbon source that does not trash your pH as much?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Feb 12, 2018

Cnidoblast said:
@Randy Holmes-Farley I wonder if sodium acetate would make a good carbon source that does not trash your pH as much?

Sodium acetate is used in Salifert ALL in One as a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive. Tropic Marin uses a similar thing that I think is sodium formate.

When I was dosing vinegar manually, I saturated it with calcium hydroxide to eliminate any pH drop on addition. Essentially it is then calcium acetate plus a tiny bit of limewater. That could then be added all at once with no issues.

Sanya · Feb 14, 2018

SPR1968 said:
I’ve used Red Sea NoPox for around 18 months and I’ve read various posts about the use of vinager as carbon dosing.

Have you ever had a problem with a bacterial film, like a white fluff on a shadow sides of rocks, while you using NOPOX? Thanks

SPR1968 · Feb 15, 2018

Sanya said:
Have you ever had a problem with a bacterial film, like a white fluff on a shadow sides of rocks, while you using NOPOX? Thanks

I haven’t had any ‘fluff’ as such but I do get a thin layer of white film on the glass to clean off. I clean the glass every 2 days but I like it spotless!

I also get white slime occasionally mainly in the sump which is a bacterial bloom and I just either back off in the NoPox dose if I can, or if I need to keep the dose up i just agitate the water surface with a power head and that breaks it up and stops it re appearing.

Maybe try reducing the dose a little.

NoPox is a balancing act and once you get the hang of it it’s very useful and relatively easy to manage.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Feb 15, 2018

All organic carbon dosing systems risk unsightly bacteria, and if it is a problem with one organic, switching to another may help. Unfortunately, that is not as easy using a mix like NOPOX as it is with individual organics like vinegar and vodka.

Sanya · Feb 15, 2018

Thanks for reply. Should I worry about it?

rkpetersen · Feb 15, 2018

redfishbluefish said:
If you wish to stay with NOPOX, you can always make your own by taking 500 mls vinegar (5%), 375 mls vodka (80 proof), and 125 mls RO/DI. This formula was determined by NMR analysis. This way you can stick to your 12 ml dosing.

That's interesting. Because there is definitely also methanol in it; it's to denature the ethanol as required by law, and it also says so on the bottle. And the smell of NO3PO4X is that of a ketone, probably acetone (cf. fingernail polish remover), not acetic acid. So, I am puzzled by that analysis and suggest that it may be incomplete (or the formula has changed.)

Were that I were still in college with access to a simple NMR spectrometer again.

redfishbluefish · Feb 15, 2018

You are correct about the methanol....Most likely there because they use denatured alcohol to avoid federal \ state taxes.....there in trace quanties. I believe it requires anaerobic bacteria to metabolize methanol....so not overly important to the ingredient list. FYI, this formulation was derived by a professor who had his grad students do the testing.

So check THIS link and follow Shermanator starting on post #48.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Feb 15, 2018

Sanya said:
Thanks for reply. Should I worry about it?

If the look bothers you, then it is worth doing something about, but it is not likely harmful. The bacteria have to be somewhere.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Feb 15, 2018

rkpetersen said:
That's interesting. Because there is definitely also methanol in it; it's to denature the ethanol as required by law, and it also says so on the bottle. And the smell of NO3PO4X is that of a ketone, probably acetone (cf. fingernail polish remover), not acetic acid. So, I am puzzled by that analysis and suggest that it may be incomplete (or the formula has changed.)

Were that I were still in college with access to a simple NMR spectrometer again.

It might have changed, but the NMR analysis was definitely mostly ethanol and acetic acid, lesser amounts of methanol and isopropanol.

Complex mix to smell.

The label list may be a regulatory requirement as opposed to a complete ingredient list.

Mindi · Apr 2, 2018

I am having a challenging moment. I have substituted the above recipe (500/375/125) for DIY Nopox for the real thing... and my previous 18mls day is not doing the job. In fact I am now up to 30mls day and my NO3 is still rising. It was pretty stable at about 3-5 ppm but is now over 10 and still climbing 2 weeks after the change. I was very careful with the recipe. Any suggestions..?