chasing stability, can’t find it.

[BigJohnny]

Again, dosing in itself is something new to me. I’m still learning of reef chemistry and how each element plays its part. I’ve read where numbers need to be and I’m trying to get there. But with my alk not dropping and calcium rising WITHOUT dosing it’s becoming frustrating so I’m posting to figure that out. I’ve not gotten an answer to that yet. I’m told to do nothing, which I have for the past 14 days aside from marine buffer. Alkalinity and calcium still on the rise. I just want to know why it’s rising without dosing.

It's not is the answer, your test kits are wrong or your performing the tests incorrectly. If your not dosing 2 part or that "marine buffer" your alk and calcium can't be rising. Get that squared away first. Sorry I misread initially and didn't realize you had stopped the 2 part, just the buffer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Again, dosing in itself is something new to me. I’m still learning of reef chemistry and how each element plays its part. I’ve read where numbers need to be and I’m trying to get there. But with my alk not dropping and calcium rising WITHOUT dosing it’s becoming frustrating so I’m posting to figure that out. I’ve not gotten an answer to that yet. .

Yes, you have gotten an answer. You just do not believe it yet.

Faulty testing or interpretation of events.

Stop measuring calcium.

It very likely is not rising on its own.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Check this thread for someone who, just yesterday, also thought calcium was rising. It wasn't.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/calcium-rising-while-alk-steady.411048/#post-4858411

 

[mcarroll]

I agree as I’m using a Hanna checker with lab grade water, but, I’ve not dosed in 2 weeks and my levels have risen. I’ve got roughly 60-70 frags in my tank currently so I don’t see how it’s possible.

Yes, you have gotten an answer. You just do not believe it yet.

Faulty testing or interpretation of events.

Stop measuring calcium.

It very likely is not rising on its own.

Check this thread for someone who, just yesterday, also thought calcium was rising. It wasn't.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/calcium-rising-while-alk-steady.411048/#post-4858411

@FragOut I think I agree...

If you're measuring alk and Ca with a digital meter, it's likely that you just need a lot more practice refining your testing technique. In particular with the Ca meter as it's test procedure is fairly complicated.

I know when I was using the Ca meter, I also had Salifert and Hach test kits that I was running in parallel to check myself. It didn't happen overnight, but after a while I was able to match Salifert's results and get a reliable comparison with the Hach every time. (Alk is a little tricky too, but not in the same league as the Ca meter.)

So take heart in two things:

1. High calcium is good for the system, if anything – so this is not a reason to worry at all. Even if it really is going up every day (it's not), it'll work itself out once coral growth kicks in.
2. Practice with your meter(s) will bring the amount of testing variability down over time.

I hope this helps!

 

[Neoalchemist]

Do we not have a magnesium# here? Correct me if Im wrong Randy Holmes-Farley but won't it be next to impossible to find any alk stability if magnesium is out of whack?

 

[FragOut]

Do we not have a magnesium# here? Correct me if Im wrong Randy Holmes-Farley but won't it be next to impossible to find any alk stability if magnesium is out of whack?

Magnesium is 1450.

Yes, you have gotten an answer. You just do not believe it yet.

Faulty testing or interpretation of events.

Stop measuring calcium.

It very likely is not rising on its own.

I’ve got everything off now except for the skimmer. I’m going to stop testing for calcium for about a month or longer and see how things turn out. It’s just very hard to believe with 2 clams and 80+ frags that I won’t have to dose calcium. it will be hard not to test it but I will leave it alone.

I appreciate all of the replies and apologize for my inability to understand the core concept of what everyone was getting at. I was under the impression that I would have to dose and maybe I’m trying too hard. So again, thank you for the replies. I will report back in a month or so with how the tank is doing.

 

[MnFish1]

Magnesium is 1450.



I’ve got everything off now except for the skimmer. I’m going to stop testing for calcium for about a month or longer and see how things turn out. It’s just very hard to believe with 2 clams and 80+ frags that I won’t have to dose calcium. it will be hard not to test it but I will leave it alone.

I appreciate all of the replies and apologize for my inability to understand the core concept of what everyone was getting at. I was under the impression that I would have to dose and maybe I’m trying too hard. So again, thank you for the replies. I will report back in a month or so with how the tank is doing.

Am I misreading something - I thought the consensus was that your measurements were in error. Why would you stop dosing/testing Ca - isn't the solution to verify that what exactly your Ca is and go from there?

 

[FragOut]

Am I misreading something - I thought the consensus was that your measurements were in error. Why would you stop dosing/testing Ca - isn't the solution to verify that what exactly your Ca is and go from there?

I’ve been told to stop measuring calcium. Which I am doing and leaving things as they are until coral growth starts and dosing calcium is necessary.

Yes, you have gotten an answer. You just do not believe it yet.

Faulty testing or interpretation of events.

Stop measuring calcium.

It very likely is not rising on its own.

 

[MnFish1]

Yes, you have gotten an answer. You just do not believe it yet.

Faulty testing or interpretation of events.

Stop measuring calcium.

It very likely is not rising on its own.

If its faulty testing - how does he know whether his Ca is high or low? I don't understand how 'stop measuring Ca' helps? Why wouldn't he 'measure Ca with a reproducible method' or get a verifiable calcium result and base whatever he does on that? Just curious...

 

[madweazl]

For what it's worth, I hated the Hanna calcium checker (it's tedious to use at best). Of the kits I've had (many over the years), the Red Sea Pro has been the easiest for repeatable results (for calcium). Anyways, even though you have a lot of frags in the tank, they're just frags and they don't consume a whole lot so you likely have quite a while before the tank requires dosing above what a simple water change will provide. Couple that with the possibility of fluctuating levels/environment, they're probably using even less (or next to none).

Do you have a buddy or a LFS that can test your calcium to use as a cross reference?

In regard to the marine buffer, it is simply an alkalinity buffer; using it will increase your alkalinity (something you're not wanting at the moment) and do nothing long term for your pH. As for the pH, don't worry about it; it is what it is at this point and it isn't going to hurt anything.

 

[mcarroll]

I appreciate all of the replies and apologize for my inability to understand the core concept of what everyone was getting at. I was under the impression that I would have to dose and maybe I’m trying too hard. So again, thank you for the replies. I will report back in a month or so with how the tank is doing.

You can always test as often as you want....but now you can consider whether your results are valid or not. If they seem surprising, you have an idea why that might be.

Re-test – see if the second result matches the first. Even do a third test if necessary – it all goes down to practice, so it's a good thing. But if you can't get 2 out of 3 to match, then you know to doubt the results.

As far as impressions to be under – you won't have to guess when growth kicks in because your coral tips, rims and bases will all be exploding.

So until your testing numbers match what you're seeing in the tank, you know there's still some variability

Have you already read this?
Chemistry And The Aquarium: How To Select A Calcium And Alkalinity Supplementation Scheme

 

[mcarroll]

That's one of my all-time favorite articles on the topic, BTW.

(Thanks, @Randy Holmes-Farley! )

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If its faulty testing - how does he know whether his Ca is high or low? I don't understand how 'stop measuring Ca' helps? Why wouldn't he 'measure Ca with a reproducible method' or get a verifiable calcium result and base whatever he does on that? Just curious...

It helps because he is worrying about something that is not likely a problem. Every number he has posted is fine.

His numbers range from 443 ppm to 530 ppm calcium. Who cares? Every single one is fine. lol

Yes, a perfectly accurate number would be good to know. But I think it very unlikely to be something he needs to act on.

 

[beaslbob]

I think Randy (as always) has an excellent point. I believe Randy when he says the numbers are fine.

I also agree with paul_b and to stop doing all this stuff.

FWIW I haven't heard of any macro algae in the system which would raise the just before light out pH.

But then I also think stability does not mean constant numbers. It is possible (normal even) for parameters to vary in an extremely normal system. As long as deviations from the variance return back to the starting variances, the system is stable.

Just as it is possible for constant numbers in an unstable system. In that case deviations from those constant values results in increased deviations hence is unstable.

But that's just me and my .02

 

[MnFish1]

It helps because he is worrying about something that is not likely a problem. Every number he has posted is fine.

His numbers range from 443 ppm to 530 ppm calcium. Who cares? Every single one is fine. lol

Yes, a perfectly accurate number would be good to know. But I think it very unlikely to be something he needs to act on.

Thanks - makes sense. . but if they are all inaccurate (for whatever reason) - i.e. 300-400 instead of 443 - 530. Just saying - if is measurements are inaccurate - who knows what they 'really' are (I get the point -everything in the tank looks good - so its unlikely that they are out of whack) - just explaining my question

 

[FragOut]

It helps because he is worrying about something that is not likely a problem. Every number he has posted is fine.

His numbers range from 443 ppm to 530 ppm calcium. Who cares? Every single one is fine. lol

Yes, a perfectly accurate number would be good to know. But I think it very unlikely to be something he needs to act on.

My “newness” to reef husbandry on this level is new. I assumed that calcium and alkalinity were maintained strictly within certain parameters. I had no idea that 100ppm calc differences were acceptable. I always assumed any large difference (or what I would consider large) were not acceptable. I also assumed that 12dkh was too high as some sps wouldn’t like it so I wanted to be in the 8 range and couldn’t get there no matter what I tried(I tried to raise the ph to increase alk and cal consumption).

Thank you guys for being understanding and getting my mind level on the subject. Once I start dosing again I will cut it in half. I went and got Red Sea calcium test kits and another brand I will have to check, to compare results to. For now I’m going to monitor consumption and start my dosing regimin once it’s necessary.

Thanks again for all the replies and the guides to help me get to where I want to be with my reef. Thank you for your knowledge, Randy. And thanks everyone else for posting guides and your comments. I appreciate it. You all are awesome.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks - makes sense. . but if they are all inaccurate (for whatever reason) - i.e. 300-400 instead of 443 - 530. Just saying - if is measurements are inaccurate - who knows what they 'really' are (I get the point -everything in the tank looks good - so its unlikely that they are out of whack) - just explaining my question

I cannot deny all the measurements may be inaccurate and he is below desirable levels. That could be true for you too.

 

[MnFish1]

I cannot deny all the measurements may be inaccurate and he is below desirable levels. That could be true for you too.

Yes - it could be lol. But my measurements don't vary like that. I think I misunderstood your original post - when you said the measurements were 'Inaccurate' - I thought you meant they were 'meaningless' - until he figured out what he was doing wrong to make them 'Innacurate'. (i.e. verify where his correct level is). I agree with your point - I test Ca once a month and Alk once a week - I found when I tried to do it more frequently, I overreacted to small differences.

 

[User1]

I have nothing to add here other than it is important to learn the test by practice to get consistent results. Some kits make life easier - Hannah dkh for example - others not so much for someone new to testing. During my cycle I was using Red Sea for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate and found it rather consistent test after test from the beginning. Once that completed I started to check for phosphates and for that I used Hannah's checker. That one is a bit of a learning curve at least for me but now seem to get repeatable numbers. New tank and all minus what I moved over I figured I would have to start using calcium at some point due to coralline algae growth and what few SPS frags and hammers I had. Ordered Salifert for calcium and magnesium and a Hannah dkh has I noted above. Why can't all tests be as simple has Hannah's dkh is beyond me but anyway - back to the learning curve with tests.

Salifert tests for calcium and magnesium are not bad but it does take a bit of time to get a consistent or repeatable reading. You have to factor in their dripping method, how they measure the fluid, line markers, and air bubble possibly post tests when reading measurement. Personally speaking while I like the kit they really should redesign it for better measurement at the end. I mean the kit is pretty affordable - just add a couple more bucks and redesign. Anyway my point in all of this is that it doesn't help to chase until you have your testing methodology dialed in. That is what I found since recently testing for this stuff. My numbers are close but testing before a water change, then after, and seeing numbers post water change be lower and not higher using instant ocean reef crystals didn't make sense. So I tested the next day and the numbers aligned with my first test. Then skipped a day or two retested. The numbers are now consistent and while maybe I still don't trust them 100% they are at least consistent.

So now I have numbers. The tank does not appear to be consuming anything major daily based on last weeks water change. Numbers are on the lower side so I'll just bump up calcium and mag and test in another couple days. Not going to dose or anything else. Just use this has more time to refine my motor skills while the tank matures. Then once things get going I'll have the dose system available to bring online then. Until then it is on me

 

[Ferrell]

Boy am I glad I’m not a loner. I was at wits end, delt with massive velvet induced fish die off and nothing but corals for 2.5 months. Short of it, I stopped using kalk and went to two part and things spun out from there (my fault nothing wrong with 2 part) until my wife, sensing frustration said “go back to what you were doing before”. In other words, get back to basics. Let Alk get in a reasonable range and then started with small increments of kalk. Kalk is good for ph stability and really has do e my DT wonders. Corals look good, have growth tips and good extension. Feed, turn on lights, change water and do maintenance. Staying on task and nothing “extra”. Just sitting back and letting it be has helped most of all.
Good luck and happy Reefing.