Cheap black box vs more expensive LED's question

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

There is two problems with black box LEDs , the manufacturer could step up. But not at this time.
1 the hot spot dead center can be as much as 700+ par and 200 a few inches away
2 the rainbow affect
If black boxes came with the LEDs grouped behind large lenses that would solve 1 and 2 at what $50-75 more bucks ?
Plus black boxes tend to have just one color on the blue channel ( like 460,470 nm) .
But radons wew that price.

Great points! This does also make consider a question about the coral comparison photos. Are they in the same location in both tanks relative to the light? What PAR is each getting?

I used BBs for a while when I first started, and then switched to Radions. It has been a night/day difference for me, and I'll never go back...but to each their own. I do love that there really are 1000 combinations for success in this hobby.

 

[Backreefing]

I would think that if B.B. manufacturers would simply cut the B.B. in half’s then group both groups of LEDs behind 2 large lenses they would be on par with the best LEDs at a fraction of the price . I really don’t think these changes would cost them much . The cost of two lenses would be offset by not haveing individual lenses on each LED .
Are you listening Marz. Ect

 

[Backreefing]

I do like BB, the controls for blue and white and there basic power and affordability is hard to beat.

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

There is two problems with black box LEDs , the manufacturer could step up. But not at this time.
1 the hot spot dead center can be as much as 700+ par and 200 a few inches away
2 the rainbow affect
If black boxes came with the LEDs grouped behind large lenses that would solve 1 and 2 at what $50-75 more bucks ?
Plus black boxes tend to have just one color on the blue channel ( like 460,470 nm) .
But radons wew that price.

Regarding both 1 and 2 (I'm assuming you mean the disco effect?), both can helped by using wider lenses or taking lenses off as most of the LEDs used have a 120-140 degree native spread and are tightened in with lenses.

Problem is the lack of any kind of standard of lenses used and the quality of those lenses. There are anything from 60 deg (lots of hotspotting and disco) to 120 deg lenses used, with 90 and 120 being most common. With a mix of 90s on blues/UV and 120 or no lense on whites/red/green/amber the disco effect is greately reduced. Par will suffer a bit, but can be somewhat corrected with increase in intensity.

 

[djray77]

Great points! This does also make consider a question about the coral comparison photos. Are they in the same location in both tanks relative to the light? What PAR is each getting?

I used BBs for a while when I first started, and then switched to Radions. It has been a night/day difference for me, and I'll never go back...but to each their own. I do love that there really are 1000 combinations for success in this hobby.

So the top pic with the T5/Kessil tank it's measuring between 350-400 par, the bottom pic BB tank it was getting 300-350. I hate how the seneye fluctuates so much but I guess it gives you an idea for the price right. This is for the purple colors Arco Im talking about. Maybe 400 is too much light?

 

[Backreefing]

Regarding both 1 and 2 (I'm assuming you mean the disco effect?), both can helped by using wider lenses or taking lenses off as most of the LEDs used have a 120-140 degree native spread and are tightened in with lenses.

Problem is the lack of any kind of standard of lenses used and the quality of those lenses. There are anything from 60 deg (lots of hotspotting and disco) to 120 deg lenses used, with 90 and 120 being most common. With a mix of 90s on blues/UV and 120 or no lense on whites/red/green/amber the disco effect is greately reduced. Par will suffer a bit, but can be somewhat corrected with increase in intensity.

No disco is a little different from rainbow. Disco is fine imo but rainbow effect is look at the dark areas of the rockwork there will be rainbows in the shadows. With different colors of LEDs from many angles you ain’t getting around that .
This is why radons and many top LED lights group leds behind large lenses. Disco or shimmer is natural looking ( to a point )

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

No disco is a little different from rainbow. Disco is fine imo but rainbow effect is look at the dark areas of the rockwork there will be rainbows in the shadows. With different colors of LEDs from many angles you ain’t getting around that .
This is why radons and many top LED lights group leds behind large lenses. Disco or shimmer is natural looking ( to a point )

Gotcha. Never, saw it; then again, I wasn't looking for it.

 

[Danyal khan]

I just read another post and it got me thinking about something. My 75g with the t5/hybrid is a bare-bones super simple build, running a canister and no skimmer. I was actually doing this for my own experiment I guess you could say. I wanted to see for myself if all the bells and whistles were really necessary. The tank with the black boxes does have a sump with a skimmer. I don't run anything else in both systems, no carbon or gfo etc.. I wouldn't think this would be causing any effects of color and growth or could it be??

I'd check out sb reef lights thay have good black boxes and claim to use their own improved spectrum. I've used their lights with success.

 

[Thaxxx]

I think the fire issue is overblown. There are too many black boxes runing with no issues. Just my take on it.

I think the fire issue was a lie. He had no proof to back what he said. He had "heard" this. Remember the source. Brs doesn't sell black boxes.

 

[RazorRamon]

The SB Reef Light Version of these black boxes are my personal fav. they grow anything and it looks beautiful to the eye. the blues are richer. I almost prefer those to my radions.

 

[JCOLE]

I think the fire issue was more than likely user error. If both channels were on at 100% all day in a hot room then I could see it then. Not under normal use though. I run 100% blues and 40% whites for 7 hours and I can still touch the casing and lens cover without a problem.

 

[EMeyer]

Like others have pointed out in this thread, the "fire" rumor is always "I heard about a case". Its never "My black box caught fire".

Good discussion. One thing I havent seen brought up is the extreme moddability of black boxes. Someone said these were priced to be disposable - I must disagree. Theyre built so you never have to throw them out. Just replace a component and youre back in business. Cant imagine trying to do repairs on a higher-end LED.

Its like the difference between a desktop computer and a smart phone. You can easily replace hardware in your desktop. If something goes wrong in your smartphone, either throw it out & buy a new one or pay a lot to have a professional service it.

Black boxes are more like desktops. I'd have a hard time paying 4-8 times more for a device that I can't repair or modify.

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

Like others have pointed out in this thread, the "fire" rumor is always "I heard about a case". Its never "My black box caught fire".

Good discussion. One thing I havent seen brought up is the extreme moddability of black boxes. Someone said these were priced to be disposable - I must disagree. Theyre built so you never have to throw them out. Just replace a component and youre back in business. Cant imagine trying to do repairs on a higher-end LED.

Its like the difference between a desktop computer and a smart phone. You can easily replace hardware in your desktop. If something goes wrong in your smartphone, either throw it out & buy a new one or pay a lot to have a professional service it.

Black boxes are more like desktops. I'd have a hard time paying 4-8 times more for a device that I can't repair or modify.

Exactly. I've been playing around with a gutted viparspectra, plucking off Leds and replacing them with other spectrums. The Leds are dirt cheap and take less than a minute to replace. If your UV lense burns out, which it will, just pop the led off and you're back in business in minutes. Drivers are also widely avaliable and can be replaced with meanwells if you so desire.

The only thing I wish is that it had one or 2 more channels. To separate blue, white, UV, and "color" channels. But I'll settle for the first 3. Realistically, once I find the spectrum that works and I like visually, I'm unlikely to ever change it....so the 2 channel isn't a total dealbreaker.

 

[TheHarold]

There is two problems with black box LEDs , the manufacturer could step up. But not at this time.
1 the hot spot dead center can be as much as 700+ par and 200 a few inches away
2 the rainbow affect
If black boxes came with the LEDs grouped behind large lenses that would solve 1 and 2 at what $50-75 more bucks ?
Plus black boxes tend to have just one color on the blue channel ( like 460,470 nm) .
But radons wew that price.

There appears to be some
misconceptions about PAR here......

It is irrelevant if a fixture is a black box or a radion. If there is 1000 par at 5” away, there will be the same amount at 10” away. Manufacturers can’t control physics.

 

[Backreefing]

Not really I disagree. The further away the a light the weaker it becomes. Twice as far half the intensity, in general .
The hot spot problem is like a bullseye 700 in the center quickly drops off a couple inches out . This is very much reduced with high end lights hydra radons ect have much better spreads.
Don’t get me wrong. I do like B.B. and they do work , just second best .
I at this moment have a B.B. on my aquarium. And yes it’s got the hot spot . Lol

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

Not really I disagree. The further away the a light the weaker it becomes. Twice as far half the intensity, in general .
The hot spot problem is like a bullseye 700 in the center quickly drops off a couple inches out . This is very much reduced with high end lights hydra radons ect have much better spreads.
Don’t get me wrong. I do like B.B. and they do work , just second best .
I at this moment have a B.B. on my aquarium. And yes it’s got the hot spot . Lol

What BB do you have over your tank? What lenses are on it if any? How far off the surface is it?

 

[Gaspipe]

I know I'm a little late to the party, but that's exactly what I was thinking.

Two display tanks, one sump with a frag rack to compare..

@Bulk Reef Supply new series?

So my thoughts are this
Black boxes can grow coral no doubt

Now to your same coral different tank picture in my mind until you connect the systems together in one sump there is no way to tell if it’s the lights or anyone of the thousand other factors you say your params are near identical which they could be but that can make a huge difference if they aren’t identical

For example a colony of the same exact coral looks different the bottom of it isn’t the same color as the top the same coral in two different par looks different

So in my mind if you don’t have the coral in the same water params and same amount of par how can you truly say which one grows it better.

 

[Backreefing]

What BB do you have over your tank? What lenses are on it if any? How far off the surface is it?

It literally has no name . It’s 144 watts and more like a bar in shape 4.5 inches wide x 24 inches long , no fan . I purchased it on eBay and there all gone , because initially I wanted to buy another for my 90 gallon upgrade coming up . The Reason I bought it is the blue channel is 430nm .it has 3 watt LEDs and 60degree lenses. I have it 100% blue and 80% white .
I have put 3 t5 lights 2 in front 1 in behind.

 

[Backreefing]

I forgot to add it is about 7-8 inches above the water.

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

It literally has no name . It’s 144 watts and more like a bar in shape 4.5 inches wide x 24 inches long , no fan . I purchased it on eBay and there all gone , because initially I wanted to buy another for my 90 gallon upgrade coming up . The Reason I bought it is the blue channel is 430nm .it has 3 watt LEDs and 60degree lenses. I have it 100% blue and 80% white .
I have put 3 t5 lights 2 in front 1 in behind.

Hmm that would definitely explain hotspotting and that rainbow effect, those 60 degree lenses are burning holes in your tank hahaha.

Not trying to dump on your BB, but a lot of the current "quality" Blackboxes, if I can use that term, (viparspectra, Mars aqua, SB, etc) are a significant improvement as far as spectrum, led, and lens selection/quality (120/90).

I would go as far as saying that the issues you referenced earlier are limited to that particular model Blackbox and aren't present or are significantly improved upon in thr newer, more known Blackboxes.