Chemiclean 20% Water Change - Why

[Charlie the Reefer]

Hello everyone - I'll just get right to the point. Nowadays, there's a good portion of people running no water change systems, for various reasons.

I've read Randy's articles on water changes and the effects on replenishing trace, removing pollutants, etc.

With that said, what is the purpose of the 20% water change after Chemiclean treatment...? It seems like a pretty arbitrary number. I guess a more pointed question would be, would it be okay to dose Chemiclean with skipping that step?

I'd want to skip because I figure if I dose Chemiclean once, I'll probably need to dose it again which means I should develop best practices for it. I'm carefully managing trace elements with ICP tests, and obviously 20% water changes will impact those numbers.


Would appreciate any thoughts from all the knowledgeable folks here. Thanks everyone!

Charlie

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

I go twice as long as recommended, and stir as much of the gravel as I can get too. Especially next to the glass. Water Change and Charcoal for Three Days, so I can start using my Skimmer. Sometimes I have to repeat the Charcoal, application. The Dying off releases toxins, and depletes the oxygen. BTW, I never let my Charcoal Tumble, I think the fine grains harm the Fish Gills.

 

[brandon429]

because you can find 200 threads for 20 years that say chemiclean killed my tank is why, you're exporting some known poisonous effects from it/replenishing oxygen by the surface breakup of pouring in new water etc. a tank needs refreshed after such an insult.

I recommend: never use it

if you have a huge massive tank you probably will

if you have a nano, you can be cyano free every day of it's life having never used such a 5% tank-wiping product. imagine all the target cells it kills, that circulate in the tank along with the nontarget cells it kills, the oxygen effects it has, its mean stuff/ risky per threads you can find independent of my assessment. possibly thousands of them. yes, it has cured thousands of invasions too but not at zero risk.

 

[stoney7713]

I found it to be the easiest to remove is by wet skimming with a drain into a bucket. I put my ATO in a bucket of salt water.

After doing everything recommended my skimmer was still crazy.

 

[Tamberav]

dying cyano can contain toxins... some of them have toxin in the palytoxin family. Probably why sometimes tanks crash from chemiclean.

You could try to employ other methods like carbon or such.

Best practices for chemiclean seems odd... isn't the goal to have a tank that doesn't need chemiclean?

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

dying cyano can contain toxins... some of them have toxin in the palytoxin family. Probably why sometimes tanks crash from chemiclean.

You could try to employ other methods like carbon or such.

Best practices for chemiclean seems odd... isn't the goal to have a tank that doesn't need chemiclean?

Indeed that is the goal... However, I figure it's easier said than done to rectify the cause of my situation. So, it would be wise to prepare/be consistent in the treatment. And I have heard from successful reefers who do regularly dose chemiclean (once quarterly or every 2 months).

Best practices should be developed for unforseen problems. Just because you are not guaranteed to encounter an issue, doesn't mean a best practice shouldn't be developed for it. I.e., the "goal" is to have healthy, pest-free corals, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a best practice for anti-bacterial/pest-removal dips.

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

because you can find 200 threads for 20 years that say chemiclean killed my tank is why, you're exporting some known poisonous effects from it/replenishing oxygen by the surface breakup of pouring in new water etc. a tank needs refreshed after such an insult.

I recommend: never use it

if you have a huge massive tank you probably will

if you have a nano, you can be cyano free every day of it's life having never used such a 5% tank-wiping product. imagine all the target cells it kills, that circulate in the tank along with the nontarget cells it kills, the oxygen effects it has, its mean stuff/ risky per threads you can find independent of my assessment. possibly thousands of them. yes, it has cured thousands of invasions too but not at zero risk.

Appreciate your insight. I've never dosed chemiclean directly into my tank for these reasons. It "seems" very un natural and risky on paper... So to speak.

 

[brandon429]

hey how big is your reef tank

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

hey how big is your reef tank

125 gallons. Sump is ~35 gallons.

Dimensions: 60" x 24" x 20.5"

Parameters
Nitrate - 3-4ppm
Phosphate - .03-.06ppm
Alk - 8 dkh
Calcium - 450
Magnesium - 1360
Temp - 78
Salinity - 1.026

Ph is super high. I think my probe might be jacked. Ph is 8.25-8.45

 

[Jekyl]

Live phyto worked better for me than chemiclean ever did.

 

[Tamberav]

Indeed that is the goal... However, I figure it's easier said than done to rectify the cause of my situation. So, it would be wise to prepare/be consistent in the treatment. And I have heard from successful reefers who do regularly dose chemiclean (once quarterly or every 2 months).

Best practices should be developed for unforseen problems. Just because you are not guaranteed to encounter an issue, doesn't mean a best practice shouldn't be developed for it. I.e., the "goal" is to have healthy, pest-free corals, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a best practice for anti-bacterial/pest-removal dips.

I have had cyano on and off through the years and have never resorted to chemi clean. It does take some elbow grease though and not everyone gets cyano for the same reasons. I just try to avoid the quick fixes when I can, they don't work long term anyways as you pointed out with people dosing them every 2 months.

I am not sure I agree with antibiotics being used in tanks is a good thing... antibiotic resistance and such but that is another discussion.

If a person has to use chemiclean every 2 months... the definition of a successful reefer probably varies because my vote would be that the tank is out of wack if you need antibiotics every 2 months to keep it going.

 

[Midrats]

Why not give the @SunnyX method of DIY Marine Snow and MB7 a shot?

 

[brandon429]

there's no harm for that Midrats I'd choose extra bottle bac over chemi clean or red slime remover for sure. nice call, easy to try for a couple months

a 125 is too big to rip clean/remove all the waste from the sand along with cyano/so if that was my tank an oversized $900 UV sterilizer is what I'd have plumbed in/ ready/not necessarily on unless doing battle.

I would hand siphon out all cyano mats as the tank is maturing, I'd never allow one centimeter to exist via my directed siphon work, and that big UV would wind up probably stopping any work on it anyway. It would also be heading off dinos, and tradeoff invasions by GHA by burning out pelagic bits of those evils as well. uv for the win, but not a kid gloves one/come to party and get one for a 500 gallon tank/burn that.

 

[jmichaelh7]

The thought of adding chemiclean or any chemical to my tank does not sit well.

I’d say 100% water change get the chemicals out and let the natural bacteria start taking over

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

Really appreciate everyone's insight here. Honestly, my intuition from day 1 was to avoid using chemiclean and I think I'm going to roll with that gut feeling.

 

[NicolasToro]

Was on the same page of no chemicals as long as ive been reefing (not long only three years) but after 1.5 years with my new build, 65 gallons mixed reef started with dry rock i found myself battling over and over again with the uglies. No cyano for the first one and half year but all the other nuisance you can think of. I dont wanna go over all my routine and housbandry but i believe ive done a lot and have preatty decent setup but still i run into a massive gha outbreak. After talking to my lfs owner decided to give brightwell razor a try, was rough on the tank but gha and bubble gone. Everything survived. After that came cyano and i was all over it dosing bacteria and doing my best to beat it. Still didnt go away.
so… i treated with chemiclean and after three days is all gone. Tank is looking better than ever and even the numbers are balancing, used to have UL readings and finally got some no3 (my guess is the algae and cyano were getting before i could test for it)
Im not saying this products are the answer but for me it worked, now i can focus on keeping the tank looking great and enjoy it instead of freaking out and feel like the battle is never going to end.
Just did a big WC, added carbon, turn UV back on and put the skimmer cup so i can take the product out of the system. (I did make sure there was a LOT of oxygen during the treatment)
Is it a band aid? Maybe, but for me the cons and pros was worth it.
if anyone is interested feel free to ask me in a few months how the tank is going.

 

[Dan_P]

Hello everyone - I'll just get right to the point. Nowadays, there's a good portion of people running no water change systems, for various reasons.

I've read Randy's articles on water changes and the effects on replenishing trace, removing pollutants, etc.

With that said, what is the purpose of the 20% water change after Chemiclean treatment...? It seems like a pretty arbitrary number. I guess a more pointed question would be, would it be okay to dose Chemiclean with skipping that step?

I'd want to skip because I figure if I dose Chemiclean once, I'll probably need to dose it again which means I should develop best practices for it. I'm carefully managing trace elements with ICP tests, and obviously 20% water changes will impact those numbers.


Would appreciate any thoughts from all the knowledgeable folks here. Thanks everyone!

Charlie

I’ve pondered the same question, why remove 20% of the water? Seems arbitrary and useless no matter how you think about.

 

[NicolasToro]

I’ve pondered the same question, why remove 20% of the water? Seems arbitrary and useless no matter how you think about.

I think the point is to get the stuff out. Either water change, carbon or skiming. Most products indications are often open to interpretation because no tank is the same and some people get away with leaving the stuff in the system while others get their tanks crashed. Seen people on YouTube doing twice the dose as recomended for over a week and others say chemiclean killed everything. So my guess is you should be aware of what you are dosing and react when you see negative results.

 

[Dan_P]

I think the point is to get the stuff out. Either water change, carbon or skiming. Most products indications are often open to interpretation because no tank is the same and some people get away with leaving the stuff in the system while others get their tanks crashed. Seen people on YouTube doing twice the dose as recomended for over a week and others say chemiclean killed everything. So my guess is you should be aware of what you are dosing and react when you see negative results.

Sure, I get the rationalization, but leaving 80% of the ChemiClean in the aquarium is not getting a substantial amount of material out, hence, the idea that the water change is a feel good activity.

 

[brandon429]

Nicolas I think that's a wise assertion, that variability is to be expected. Glad yours was among the positive outcomes there really are lots of positive outcomes in the mix.