Chemistry help please

In your opinion, how much alkalinity is too high? Cuz I'm wondering if I bumped up the pH in the alkalinity goes a little higher, maybe the corals will start using more alkalinity and it will drop a little

I would not go much higher than 11 dKH in most cases, and only 8 dKH or so if it is a ULNS system.
 
You can do aeration tests to see the effect of complete aeration (I describe them in the article linked above), but in terms of boosting the pH overall, more aeration alone is not going to help if the problem is excess CO2 in your home air, and might even make it worse.
Isn't this only true from the perspective of someone who runs a skimmer? Since the OP doesn't run a skimmer, wouldn't adding aeration help with gas exchange and potentially help his pH?
 
I think what Randy and I are saying is that you will be aerating with the same CO2 laden air, which can actually worsen the problem.
 
Also, sorry, there IS an option as you mentioned to run a CO2 filter in your venturi skimmer feed (there are others on here who say it works). Just more costly and requires upkeep. I am in PA and it is in the 30s right now. I am not noticing a problem with temp right now. I have lived in MA so i know it can remain more sustained frigid up there. The outside air supply is cheap to experiment with and can be pulled & sealed up if there is a problem. Depending on your living situation or positioning of the tank/sump might not be practical. Mine runs about 30' when all said and done. It would seem to be an impractical solution given the length of my run, but I did it and it works. 1/2" ID tubing coupled down near the venturi worked for that run.
 
I think what Randy and I are saying is that you will be aerating with the same CO2 laden air, which can actually worsen the problem.
Since he has very little aeration there is no way of knowing if it will help or not. We do not know if the CO2 levels in his tank are at an equilibrium with the CO2 levels in his air. Adding an airstone would be a quick and cheap way to figure this out. Recommending a CO2 filter or running an airline outside to someone who doesn't have a skimmer to connect them to just doesn't seem like a solution to me. And I can't recommend getting a skimmer just to correct an acceptable, if low, pH on a system that the OP plans on upgrading in under 2 months.
 
BTW...I tried all the more simple things first like adding airstones in my sump. More costly things like more effective water movement in my tank by adding 4 Ecotech MPs. Both moves were good and remain in place, but didn't solve the sustained low pH. It wasn't until I started reading here and elsewhere about this issue with newer homes that I tried opening a slider and window during the summer (obviously not practical on hot or cold days) did I narrow down the source of the problem, co2. I considered both the in-line air filter and outside supply, even had my itchy finger on the purchase button for the filter and then decided to give the outside airline a try. I will see this winter if I have any cold temp issues, but went through some sweltering hot periods with no heat issues thus far, and that is usually a bigger problem with most people's reef tanks. I've read that some people in colder climates put pipe insulation around d the first few feet of the intake coming in the house to reduce the possibility of condensation freezing.
 
3.9 dKh is low for Alkalinity. Above 11 would be too high.
I'm not even sure 3.9 dKh would be possible. I believe (or maybe just hoping) that is 3.9 meq/L
 
BTW...I tried all the more simple things first like adding airstones in my sump. More costly things like more effective water movement in my tank by adding 4 Ecotech MPs. Both moves were good and remain in place, but didn't solve the sustained low pH. It wasn't until I started reading here and elsewhere about this issue with newer homes that I tried opening a slider and window during the summer (obviously not practical on hot or cold days) did I narrow down the source of the problem, co2. I considered both the in-line air filter and outside supply, even had my itchy finger on the purchase button for the filter and then decided to give the outside airline a try. I will see this winter if I have any cold temp issues, but went through some sweltering hot periods with no heat issues thus far, and that is usually a bigger problem with most people's reef tanks. I've read that some people in colder climates put pipe insulation around d the first few feet of the intake coming in the house to reduce the possibility of condensation freezing.
First, if he were running a skimmer, I would never recommend adding an airstone. A skimmer will provide much better aeration than an airstone. If his fish, combined with decaying vegetation, create more CO2 than is being exchanged through little more than surface agitation an airstone could help imo.

I live in a newer house so I battle low pH for just this reason too. If the house is closed up, my pH averages 8.0. With a temporary outside air line to my skimmer, my pH averages 8.2. However, when the motor in my skimmer died my pH gradually dropped to 7.8 until I got it replaced. I am fairly certain that it was due to CO2 build up in my tank due to lack of air exchange. I'm still deciding if I want to come up with a better solution this winter or just live with a pH around 8.0.
 
Isn't this only true from the perspective of someone who runs a skimmer? Since the OP doesn't run a skimmer, wouldn't adding aeration help with gas exchange and potentially help his pH?

Nope. More aeration drives the pH in the direction of the equilibrium with the CO2 in the air. That may raise or lower the pH, depending on the current amounts of Co2 in both places. It might even lower the pH at one time of day and raise it at another.
 
Yes, I understand Banana Pants isn't quite in the position we are yet in terms of owning a sump or skimmer, but sounds like it is something being considered. I'm just trying to share my current anecdotal experience as I kind of had to bumble into my conclusions through trial and error and lots of reading on-line. LFS wasn't much help on this subject. People without tight homes probably haven't had to witness a tank months and months on end having issues you just can't put a finger on it, even when all numbers were good and steady(besides pH). I never had this problem until I moved into a newer home 2.5 yrs ago. I was oblivious this could even be a possibility. There are a lot of people saying don't chase the numbers on pH, and maybe that isn't a problem if the pH is rising into the "zone" low 8.0s and drifting back down at night, and maybe not a problem if you aren't trying amass a full blown reef tank eventually. My tank was holding steady between 7.6 - 7.8. Never broke 8.0 until I opened up my house. It is now my opinion holding that low isn't good. It sounds like BPs tank is running the same. I'm hoping BP hears us all and starts with the simple things, before moving on to more complicated solutions (not really complicated IME). Maybe this save BP some time, maybe even save some money on selecting equipment down the line, in understanding the issue at hand and possible solutions. That's all...didn't mean to sound finite. BP...do the air test first, whether it be taking a sample outside or just open up the house in the room where your tank is(give enough time for pH to rise).
 
There are a lot of people saying don't chase the numbers on pH, .

That phrase, like many oversimplifications of reef chemistry, does have great potential to be misleading, and I do not usually state it that way.

If the pH is "too low" (say, less than pH 7.8), then certainly correcting it can be substantially beneficial.
 
Agreed Randy. I think that's why pH might not get enough attention. It's almost like it gets translated to fogetaboutit.
 
Agreed Randy. I think that's why pH might not get enough attention. It's almost like it gets translated to fogetaboutit.
Especially when you look at how complex pH actually is. Alkalinity too, for that matter. No single part of the chemistry is too difficult. It is all of the different interactions and balances that makes it complex. Instead of learning all of the interactions it is much easier to maintain Alk and "not chase pH". In reality, we shouldn't be chasing any single number, we need to chase the correct balance.
 
Agreed on that as well. It's like you probably shouldn't be in 7.7 pH avg neighborhood if you're running 10 - 12 kH, for simplification purposes. I think the difficult discussion starts happening where the rubber meets the road. What I mean by that is how do you begin discussions about how to truly fix a problem where co2 in the house is the limiting factor? I can see why LFSs (businesses let's not forget) and others don't want to broach a hard subject, like dude, you have too much co2 in your house....drill a hole in your wall and run a tube to get fresh balanced air in your tank water. How many hairy eyeballs would they get. I type this with a smile on my face, because I visualize many discussions with these guys (more than one store). Then when I broach the subject about how I brought in outside air, all the stories of other customers having the same issues come out. It's like they had to know I was on that level of psycho commitment to feel free to speak about it. But, to your point, I think it makes the discussion even more difficult when people really don't know the importance of balances and the impacts of these parameters. Its the "why" behind the solutions and methods we are seeking out.
 
I think the difficult discussion starts happening where the rubber meets the road. What I mean by that is how do you begin discussions about how to truly fix a problem where co2 in the house is the limiting factor?

I'm not sure of the confusion. The answers are few and straightforward, and I've detailed them in several articles. Soem may choose to nopt do them, or can't do them, but it is a limited list:

1. Fresher air in the home by any of several ways
2. Air line to skimmer inlet
3. CO2 scrubber on skimmer inlet
4. Increased photosynthesis, such as via refugium, maybe off cycle lighting
5. Limewater when alkalinity is needed
 
Randy, I'm clear now. The realization of what I needed to do has sunk in for me. I think for a newb, or new to this particular problem (me)...and maybe someone who hasn't even come to the conclusion they need to read these subjects and consider these solutions (I read your material, and i'm on board), it can be a tough pill to swallow. Also some people aren't as brave or handy to execute on some of the solutions.
 
Btw: I have done #2 & #4. I have opted not to do #3 in favor of #2 which to me was easy and less maintenance/cost, but to some drilling thru an exterior wall is a daunting thought. I don't do #5 as I am running a calc reactor and my kH is maintained plenty high and stable. I am using RSCP salt which is on the high side for Alk. Down side is more co2 from calc reactor, but #2 keeps my pH satisfactorily high enough, low 8.0s now. Tank health has done a 180 since executing #2 confirming that my imbalance and low pH were the main issues.
 
Thank you everyone for the input and sharing your experiences. I had attempted to raise my pH artificially 2 days ago. After 24hrs it dropped right back down from 8.2 to 7.9 which leads me to believe it's high co2 in the house(maybe I should grow a forest in my living room =P) So after reading everyone's responses of decided to purchase a HOB protein skimmer (Eshopps PSK-100H) because I can always use it in a predator tank in the future, and see how adding the aeration helps. I also purchased a co2 scrubber to test and see if I gain further benefits on top of simple aeration(should be in by the end of next week).
 

IF YOU HAD TO TAKE A REEFING EXAM, WOULD YOU PASS?

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